I gonna scare you guys alittle bit
i even own a c64 and a c128
i bought it for the monitor
a commodore 1024S great deal Fl 15,-
i know commodore 64/128 verry well..........

yeah so.. i have 2 C64's and 3 amiga's.. i'am a collector
nothing to be scared about

I once used a commy.. long long time ago, before my msx era .. I really don't remember jack about it anymore.. except that waiting for games took minutes! I guess I was like 8 or 9 orso ..

Boh... I even got myself an Amiga 1200 (with AGA). Tis great to play games on anyway ^^;, and the built in 80MB SCSI HDD is just great!

Not much of a fan of the whole commodore thingy, but the Amiga kicked ass, especially for it's time... Quite revolutionary.

MSX could do most of the stuff the original Amiga could... (digitizing, etc)
During the years the MSX demo scene always showed 'hey, MSX can do that too'.

I don't think Amiga was revolutionary at all. In fact, it 'steals' most of its concepts from MSX.

Amiga is for people who are impressed by flashy graphics and massive samplefrequencies for their MODfiles.

Remember a company called *barf* Imagine/Psygnosis *barf* ? They did a Amiga game (I think it was called 'Shadow Of The Beast') which had loads of scrolling layers, HUGE character sprites with massive animation and a high-octane soundtrack.

It would have made a great techdemo, but they decided to market it as a game instead. Too bad there is no possible way of getting some actual gameplay out of it...

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MSX could do most of the stuff the original Amiga could... (digitizing, etc) During the years the MSX demo scene always showed 'hey, MSX can do that too'. I don't think Amiga was revolutionary at all. In fact, it 'steals' most of its concepts from MSX.

Yeah, exept that MSX *sucked* and Amiga didn't? Hate to drop this bombshell on you, but by the time the MSX2 was introduced it was in many aspects already outdated. Sure, I love this computer and it certainly has a 'feel' to it that no other system had, but the Amiga was vastly superior in many ways to the MSX.

True, on one hand the Amiga was a rag/tag computer that consisted of a bunch of parts thrown together that had no business being in the same box, but I should think the design idea proved to work pretty well in practice. There's many things the original Amiga can do that the Turbo-R just can't do, eventhough both have *similar* hardware specs.

Both have 7MHz CPU's, both are pretty much 16-bit CPU's, both have the same amount of RAM... Yet somehow the Amiga, which was almost from the same period as the MSX2!, manages to kick some giant ass for the price of around $400 for which it was sold. Don't get me wrong, I did my share of Amiga-dissing, but I think it's time to grow up and admit that the amiga can kick a Turbo-R's ass blindfolded.

It's like having DirectX in 1987!! The CPU gives a bunch of orders and everything gets done... How cool is that? And yes, I know there's a whole bundle of CPU's that need to be programmed too, but still the concept works and is in my humble opinion revolutionary for 1987. Big fat graphics, four channel samples and a diskdrive that does it's thing while you're not even watching? Come on, that's hip...

I fail to see what the Amiga stole from MSX tho? I don't know if by that you mean the architecture in which the CPU has to do everything, the part with the big fat bottle-neck between the main ram and the (cheap) video ram or the Z80 CPU that was present in virtually every single computer from that era...

And yes, I know some shit was stolen from the Atari... But who cares? I whish the MSX had stolen some shit from other computers so I wouldn't have to worry about the ridiculously low-speed VDP copies which are keeping me from making my next game. But, I just know you'll somehow figure out a way to tell me I'm wrong, so I'll just shut up...

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But, I just know you'll somehow figure out a way to tell me I'm wrong, so I'll just shut up...

Yeah... Although I don't feel like proving you wrong on everything you said (it's late, I'm tired), but I'll say this:
The original Amiga sold at $1300-$2000 (depending on country), not $400... You'd better get your facts straight.

Amiga 500 was released in 1987, 2 years after MSX2, and if you want to talk about ass-kicking; the Acorn Archimedes launched in the same year kicks major Amiga ass...

Your 'DirectX in 1987' remark is dumb, coz MSX2 had 'DirectX in 1985'

I'll give Amiga this: It had a revolutionary operating system, which made many great softwares possible.

But, there's more to computers than technology...

You shouldn't talk down on MSX like that, you should know it's worth more than that. You're probably also one of the people that say Holland doesn't mean shit in the world and it should just shut up?
Well, read some history books and get your facts straight...

I wonder if those people can read at all, since they can't seem to keep their facts straight.

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The original Amiga sold at $1300-$2000 (depending on country), not $400... You'd better get your facts straight.

$2000? Yeah, in Russia maybe. The Amiga 500 (which is the one I was talking about - hence the 1987 remark, the original Amiga was also realeased in 1985) was introduced with the peak price of GBP 599,- (at that time around $700) and then quickly dropped to about US$ 400,- (which was equivalent to about Hfl 1000,- at the time).

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Amiga 500 was released in 1987, 2 years after MSX2, and if you want to talk about ass-kicking; the Acorn Archimedes launched in the same year kicks major Amiga ass...

I wasn't talking about Acorn, this discussion started because you said the MSX could do pretty much everything the Amiga could and how the Amiga was not revolutionary at all.

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Your 'DirectX in 1987' remark is dumb, coz MSX2 had 'DirectX in 1985'

Yeah, wow, it had a lame blitter in the VDP that could move bytes around at the blazing speed of 100k/s. (okay, 300k/s in some cases) Ofcourse that's all it had. And lets not forget the A1000 had this too, in 1985.

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I'll give Amiga this: It had a revolutionary operating system, which made many great softwares possible. But, there's more to computers than technology...

I already said that MSX is the only computer that has 'the feel'. It is the only computer I've ever loved, and the only computer I probably ever will love. Yes, I know there's more to a computer than technology, if not I wouldn't be talking about a 20-year-old 8-bitter on this forum nor would I put at least 1 hour/day into translating newposts for this website. (Not to mention trying to make some small projects so I can at least contribute something to this system I love.)

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You shouldn't talk down on MSX like that, you should know it's worth more than that. You're probably also one of the people that say Holland doesn't mean shit in the world and it should just shut up? Well, read some history books and get your facts straight...

I don't talk MSX down, there's just some limitations to the system I don't like... I just think it's plain silly to say that MSX can do what Amiga can. That was great in the 90's for good-old-rivalry's sake (and at least I knew the truth at the time) but if we're now in 2004 and you're seriously considering making a remark like that, I think *you* should get your facts straight.

Now, I don't know where all that crap about Holland comes from, I guess it somehow makes sense to you. I cherish my country, know quite a lot about it's history and don't particularly appreciate the fact that you seem to question my patriotism. I fail to see a link, but I'm sure there is one in the world of prozac...

'nuf said...

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I don't talk MSX down, there's just some limitations to the system I don't like... I just think it's plain silly to say that MSX can do what Amiga can. That was great in the 90's for good-old-rivalry's sake (and at least I knew the truth at the time) but if we're now in 2004 and you're seriously considering making a remark like that, I think *you* should get your facts straight.

Hate to break it to you, but there are limitations in the Amiga which Amiga people don't like.
So what can Amiga do that MSX can't? Actually very little. If you leave out obvious technicalities like raw CPU speed, there really isn't much MSX can't do.
Can MSX do:
Digitization? Check
Multitasking? Check
Multilayer scrolling? Check
Demo effects? Check
Read from disk while music playing? Limited w/ floppydisks, and Full with other kinds of media.

Let's not talk about MSX' enhanced sprite capabilities, or its system architecture that makes it (uniquely so) easily expandable and easy to tinker with.

Well, being an "MSX Friend" so far (and waiting to get my first MSX ever I've got a few novice questions comparing MSX to Amiga: where do I find any links to any decent 3D renders and/or 3D animations made on an MSX or 3D rendering packages? Are there any MSX applications comparable to PageStream (DTP), a WYSIWIG word processor, support for vector fonts, multiple code pages for fonts etc? Something like the Directory Opus for file management? How about web browsers/e-mail clients?Are there ANY productivity packages for the MSX at all? If MSX multitasks, what do I multitask with it (that is, is there any practical use for it)? Can I use an unexpanded MSX2 with a VGA monitor in 800x600 resolution? Can I use an MSX as an everyday computer? Because I can with the Amiga if I have to...
I really think comparing Amiga with MSX is a bit lame. Amiga's main advantage is a great OS supported by a grat chipset, while MSX's advantage is that it doesn't really need any OS (I mean modern OS with a GUI and a shell, OS level scripting and file types rather than just Basic with a few commands for copying files) - complex OSs can do great things, but they do crash; if you want to prevent it you need to implement things that require even more resources and CPU power... And even though this is thinkable with a Z80 (especially the eZ80), why bother? With many apps you can do just fine with simple task-switching because you just don't need the other apps tu RUN when you're not using them. In other words - simplicity is a great advantage when it's appreciated and used properly.

Well, Dementhor, of course you are right to a certain level. But there indeed ARE 3D animations on MSX, there IS a great DTP, Dynamic Publisher, there IS a webbrowser, there are great file management programs, i.e. Multi Mente and there is much much more. I agree the Amiga has a great OS and a good chipset. MSX can do multitasking, but isn't suitable for it. But, as you state yourself, the MSX doesn't need it anyway. In my view, the MSX power lies in its simplicity indeed. And making apps and software for such a system is an art. We agree

I really hope you will continue your MSX quest, you'll have a lot of fun for sure.

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But there indeed ARE 3D animations on MSX

Latok, I'm really sorry to say this, but you can't compare F-Nano2' to something like Amiga's Gloom.

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there IS a great DTP, Dynamic Publisher

Dynamic Publisher vs. Kindword or something? Nah... Not really worth the comparison.

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there IS a webbrowser

You mean that MSX1/16 color-FudeBrowzer-under-Uzix-thing? It'll only work well on a MSX Turbo R Besides, configuring the internet settings is like *HELL* in Uzix. That is, when you don't have those 2 MSX Info Bladen from Totally Chaos/MSX Info team. I think it's even outdated when compared to the worst text-based browser under Linux or something like that...

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there are great file management programs, i.e. Multi Mente and there is much much more.

Finally, agreed! Multi Mente is quite a management program, but then again, it's nothing compared to Amiga's DosControl. But I agree with you when you say MM satisfies for MSX (again, preferably a MSX Turbo R).

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I agree the Amiga has a great OS and a good chipset. MSX can do multitasking, but isn't suitable for it. But, as you state yourself, the MSX doesn't need it anyway. In my view, the MSX power lies in its simplicity indeed. And making apps and software for such a system is an art. We agree

That's how I like to hear it! Totally agree with this. As you know, the MAF (MSX Affiliates Forum) has been down for some months (reason for me to profile me here ), but I had a post there concerning my exact definition to what MSX should be, and to what extent it should be used. Maybe (if he's reading this), FiXato can recover my post and dump it into this thread...

To summarize these things:
- MSX isn't meant for 3D apps/games (although F-Nano2' is *addictive*!)
- MSX isn't meant for WYSIWYG DTP programs
- MSX isn't meant for a multitasking OS (well, maybe MSX Turbo R is meant for it )
- MSX isn't meant for browsing the World Wide Web
Although it's nice to see that those things are possible, actually.

- MSX is meant for playing relatively simple, yet addictive games on it
- MSX is meant for showing demos with stunning effects on this 1983-1991-dated machine
- MSX is meant for expressing one's creativity
- Don't forget: MSX is a hobby, something that you'll do in your own spare time (well, not always )!

Well, this was just my opinion in a brief summary