Wolf is extremely protective of his samples... In fact it's so bad that he will only release his moonsound stuff as mp3, so nobody can hear it on their own MSX'es.
At the same time he's telling people to upgrade to a 640K moonsound RAM minimum, but who will do that if there's no content that uses it?!

no, we're not going to discuss that again, to prevent a flamewar here .. I was actually hesistating to post that one, as I knew that you would react to that like this ...

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no, we're not going to discuss that again, to prevent a flamewar here .. I was actually hesistating to post that one, as I knew that you would react to that like this ...

Ha... you're not the only one who won't submit the insturments. I have tons of instruments here (including rips of Korg & Yamaha). Overal it is just to much... This site is an MSX site.. Not a Musician Site.. If guys want samples, then just visit the following:

LOCATION ADDRESS DIRECTORY
USA (MO) ftp.wustl.edu pub/aminet/mods
USA (TX) ftp.etsu.edu pub/aminet/mods
Scandinavia ftp.luth.se pub/aminet/mods
Switzerland ftp.eunet.ch pub/aminet/mods
Switzerland litamiga.epfl.ch pub/aminet/ (*)
Germany ftp.uni-paderborn.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-erlangen.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-bielefeld.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-oldenburg.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-kl.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-stuttgart.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.uni-siegen.de pub/aminet/mods
Germany ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de pub/aminet/mods
UK ftp.doc.ic.ac.uk pub/aminet/mods

Samples enough I would say...

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Wolf is extremely protective of his samples... In fact it's so bad that he will only release his moonsound stuff as mp3, so nobody can hear it on their own MSX'es. At the same time he's telling people to upgrade to a 640K moonsound RAM minimum, but who will do that if there's no content that uses it?!

Haha, as if...

Guess I forgot the smileys whilst I wrote it down...
I know how delicate his sounds are... Just tickeling the replies...

I just don't get it... What's the difference between these two:

Programmer's make programs. They use development tools which are either freely available or cost money. Often they release tools they wrote themselves to help others. The programs they make are written in source-code, which is often kept to themselves, but some people like to release that too. The result are programs that can be used by users, and disassembled to find out how they work.

Wolf makes music. He uses development tools that are either freely available or cost money. He does not release tools he wrote himself to help others. The music is written in moonblaster MWM(editmode) format with huge libraries of sounds, which he keeps to himself. The result is a MWM(usermode)+MWK file that can be used by users, and disassembled to find out how they work.

Yet... Programmers release the result of their labour! Why doesn't wolf release his?!

*sigh* it will never end

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Wolf makes music. He uses development tools that are either freely available or cost money.

sofar no issues..

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He does not release tools he wrote himself to help others.

What tools? the only music-related opl4 tool I ever did was that voice-manager, which is shareware and available @ MRC .. for the rest it's just mbwave and Soundforge 5 on PC ..

If you're referring to that tile-editor, that's another story, and shouldn't be messed-up with the tunes/mp3 issue.. (that is: you make it an issue). The tile-editor is not done, it's messy, and the best features only work with the map-editor, which is very limited atm. Releasing it would mean a lot of work (as if I can actually read my old code ), and I prefer to make a whole new tool - which I told you @ IRC already - supporting screen5 and the patternmodes of the gfx9k modes.. and perhaps screen 4 too, but Im not so sure about that since that involves making a slightly different zoom-editor. (the issue is: should I make a seperate zoom-editor, or should there be 1 uniform zoom-editor that's also compatible with 2colors-per-line modes if you press some button orso) I'm mainly working on a few -useful- advanced GUI thingies that Blitz+ doesn't provide out-of-the-box, and which you really need for large-scale designtools. For example: B+ currently doesn't provide image-buttons! So, atm I'm working on my own image-button object, complete with the event-managing stuff. I intend to make this tool public when it's done.

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The music is written in moonblaster MWM(editmode) format with huge libraries of sounds, which he keeps to himself.

As I wrote somewhere else on this forum AND on IRC, I don't release seperate tunes w/o context anymore, period. I only release the full-product, meaning a game with music. Love it or leave it. I want the effect of the combined synergy of gfx and music, instead of 'just the music', since that adds great value to the end-product.

btw, everyone should build and use it's own samples. In the early days of my PC-era I was sampling each and every sample from keyboards, synths, modules etc. Because I sampled, cut and looped and judged them myself (thousends of them!) I still remember all of them. This all makes browsing for them a breeze, I never have to search for it because I know where they are. I never have to think about *if* the instruments will work, I know *that* they will work, because I remember them and hear them work in practive inside my head already. I've now some commercial libraries, and some of them are so huge in quantity that it really costs time to investigate them, and judge them by their quality. The bottomline is: if you work with your own material, then it makes life so much better and easier..

anyway, back to where we were before this library-stuff:

A simple example: the music behind the game 'Nemesis 2' rocks, but in a seperate player it's boring (or at least less impressive)..! That's what I meant with synergy .. combine the 2 and something magical happens: the music lifts the gfx skyhigh, and vice-versa.

Another oldskool example? I actually liked the blue gradient-background of Impact musix disk 4 with the rotating playbuttons on it.. it adds spacyness to the 'whole thing'... the endless horizon-idea.. The gfx couldn't have been better imo.. dunno if the gradient-effect was intential or just a lazy picture made in the last night before the fair (you can draw a gradient in a few minutes), but the result was nice.

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Yet... Programmers release the result of their labour! Why doesn't wolf release his?!

Well, that example-tune was made for the following purpose: to showcase the current 128kb-users what 640kb sram can do, compared to 128k. Obviously the current crop of 128kb users couldn't play it anyway. Not with the intention that those ppl should buy the extra sram right the next day, but with the intention they those ppl are at least prepared to get it when there's content. Look at the msx2 'standard' .. it was sortof stuck at 128kb because ppl waited too long with expanding. As ppl waited too long, producers made products for 128kb, and suddenly the need for more ram was gone. I try to break this circle for the moonsound now, by sortof forcing 640kb for future products, so that at least there's a healthy base to develop for. I also recommend other developers to support 640k samplememory, and avoid any middle-road options, such as 256kb etc.

Anyway, lets avoid a flame-war here, I case my rests ...

BLA BLA BLA

As if you are so great that everybody will want to steal your samples...
Even so, if indeed you made them, you have a copyright on them, so it would be illegal for anybody to steal it.
And even if someone wouldn't care about that, simply using your samples does not make them good musicians automagically!

Anyway... I just wanted to point out something, and your reaction speaks for itself.

This is no way to treat your fans, if you have any left...

I've said this several times and I'll say it again. If wolf wants to encourage 640 KB sample RAM in Moonsound, he shouldn't release MP3 files of the tunes he made to encourage it, but release the actual MWM/MFM/MWK files... That's really the only way to go. People want to be able to listen to the tunes on their own Moonsound.

This is not the point of this tread. And ey, Patriek, you overreact imho.

Yez, Meits, some sfeerverneukers think they are God and are verheven above all. So Guyver & Wolf -> act normally....

[Bart_edit] Removed a useless flame. Hasn't got anything to do with the thread, plz behave. [/edit]

Not really revering to Wolf. I know how he handles his creations with care and I respect that.

A few days ago we had a quite heated discussion on #msxdev about similar topics. I was, like GuyveR, under the impression that Wolf indeed did not intend to release his SCREEN 4 editor (which would be a great supplement to the VScreen editor). Not now, not in the future. Now I've read something new: he plans to release the tool after various improvements. To me, that changes the situation.

In the past many MSX groups had their own in-house tools. Now, with a smaller, friendlyer community, the availability of internet and the decrease (total lack?) of competition I'd say it would be very stupid not to share your in-house tools with the rest of the community, because releasing them will only contributing to more new MSX software.

As for releasing the music only in combination with games. I can understand that, but the song you have released in mp3 will probably not be used in a game since it's out in the open already. The entire purpose of that song was to demonstrate the capabilities of a 640kB moonsound, and the only way to really demonstrate that is to allow people with a 640kB moonsound to play the file itself, instead of an mp3. Of course, someone might steal your samples, but in a game the same will happen. Even if you compress, hide and encrypt your MFM/MWM/MWK it will only be a matter of time before someone works around all that. And, I think the sample-RAM remains intact after a soft-reboot anyway.

I can, however, understand that -if- you are working on a game, you don't want the music you're creating for -that- game to be released. I wouldn't do it either. And I never did it in the past. But, as far as I know, you're not working on a game right now, and at least you have quite a nice amount of songs lying around that were not created with a 'this is going to be used in a game'-in mind. And, knowing you a little bit, if your songs were going to be used in a game, you'd like to know exactly what kind of game it is, what the story is, where in the game the song would be used etc. etc. etc. In other words: you would create completely new songs for that game, specifically meant for just that game. Only than music can really support the rest of the game, raising both to a higher level.

It would be a shame if all those MSX songs you creaetd will never be released, wolf. Most people love the RMF and Muzax songs you did and are eager to hear more. Even though the songs are old to you, and don't demonstrate your full capabilities... they are definitely worth releasing.

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>>http://www.madtracker.org to download it (it's free/shareware)<< Not quite freeware.. It comes with some limitation, if you use it for free.

If you read carefully I say that it's free (to download)... AND shareware (which means you get a full featured version when you donate, the unregistered version just doesn't let you export the music as a wav file... which is irrelevant imho as you can just start cooledit and record with that while you're playing in Madtracker)

i never said it is freeware...


On another note... boyzzz behave!!! I think every musician has a right to keep his own samples for himself... somebody here compared it with coders -> well you don't see coders spreading their SOURCE-codes around do you? at least not coders that actually have to make a living out of coding. I consider trackerfiles/samples/midifiles/projectfiles the sourcecode of a musician, which is his own personal/intellectual property.

If somebody releases their music in MP3 only, that's their right imho... it's bad enough the music gets copied widely without getting payed for it as it is.

woei...

I like it how people call me 'sfeerverneuker' and 'god' and 'overreacting' without knowing the history. It's so typical.

IMO it's Wolf who's fouling up the atmosphere with his attitude and ego and I'm just pointing that out.

Ofcourse he's entitled to keep everything he makes for himself, but then he shouldn't confront any of us with it! That's what's called 'lekker maken' in dutch.

IMO Wolf should change his nick to 'TheBigTease'.

I'm gonna shut up now, so you guys can relax...

"In the meantime, I'm here, pointing out that what's crooked, flaming those that make a mockery of truth, and fighting for the cause." -- GuyveR800, 2002

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Now I've read something new: he plans to release the tool after various improvements. To me, that changes the situation.

Well, not 'that' tool. But a new tool with comparible and even better functionality. The problem with the old tool was that it uses all your personal windows(tm) settings like font-size etc. For example: with my TFT I don't care much for the size of a font, it's all crips 'n clear. I've a small font, but Chao5 on the other hand has a CRT monitor, so he picks a slightly bigger font-size. What happens: B+ doesn't have image-buttons, so all buttons contain text. Some txt's are good with MY windows-settings, but way too big on Chao5' system. There are even parts of the editor that Chao5 didn't see for a long while as some buttons were placed below his vertical resolution
So, the things I had in mind are: completely ignore all the windowws GUI stuff like buttons, labels and scrollbars, and make my own. My own will be based on bitmaps and my own custom font. This way the app looks the same on all systems. These new GUI objects are fairly realistic to do, and not too ambitious.
The first tool was a test, and based on that tool I know how to make a new poslished tool.

Some other ideas I had in mind are:

- built-in sprite editors based on multiple layers (arm layers, torso layers, head layers etc. so that for an animation you only need to move the layers around to get a 'walking' character)
- built-in map-editor
- built-in character-properties editor
- big sketch-screen to work on, instead of directly work on the actual picture

..etc... kinda ambitious, and surely everything you ever want for games.. but that's what I'm working on atm. I prefer to put energy on this project, rather than to soup-up old stuff. And I guess I don't have to explain to coders that the 2nd time you code the same app is always better than the first time.

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In the past many MSX groups had their own in-house tools. Now, with a smaller, friendlyer community, the availability of internet and the decrease (total lack?) of competition I'd say it would be very stupid not to share your in-house tools with the rest of the community, because releasing them will only contributing to more new MSX software.

Don't you think it's funny that you request a gfx-tool made by a music-composer, while you are surrounded by real msx&pc coders here?

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As for releasing the music only in combination with games. I can understand that, but the song you have released in mp3 will probably not be used in a game since it's out in the open already.

Nope, it was just exercise and a test. I made 3 more tunes with a slightly different wavekit (639kb) just to test the ultimate balance of tones in a situation where you have to stick to the same wavekit for an entire game, excluding intro/endtro. For the moment, I think I'll rather keep those here before things start all over again. Anyway, it's just a test, and really nothing more. atm there's a slight advantage for 24 wave with 640k samples compared to 18fm+6wave. The ultimate solution would be full mbfm with 24wave channels. Ahwell, we know the Mighty perSon-Dude to nag for that

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The entire purpose of that song was to demonstrate the capabilities of a 640kB moonsound, and the only way to really demonstrate that is to allow people with a 640kB moonsound to play the file itself, instead of an mp3.

Do you really need proof for that? Why can't ppl just asume that the output from that mp3 directly came from my moonsound?

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it will only be a matter of time before someone

either TBM, MSD or Bifi ..

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works around all that. And, I think the sample-RAM remains intact after a soft-reboot anyway.

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But, as far as I know, you're not working on a game right now

wrong! I've plans for a futuristic RPG in MG style.. still working on a script, and first I want my new tile-editor to be done as I'm not gonna draw on my blurry lo-res msx-monitor.. tho maybe Chao5 and I do a small puzzle-game in-between for some fair or something.. which will support 640k moonsound naturally..

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It would be a shame if all those MSX songs you creaetd will never be released, wolf. Most people love the RMF and Muzax songs you did and are eager to hear more. Even though the songs are old to you, and don't demonstrate your full capabilities... they are definitely worth releasing.

If this is what you're thinking then really the wrong story circulates around. If it was a finished tune then it was released. If it's not released then it's not finished, or just a handfull of patterns w/o direction.

Take for example some oldskool gfx artist like uhm, Jetsoft. Do you really think that he has tons of images which are all polished and ready, but that he only released like 10 orso in MCCM or Ducktales? I'm very sure that he also has unfinished work, or just sketches and other small thingies, like one grey 16x16 tile somewhere in the up-left corner. You know, you draw something @ 01:00 and you want to sleep, ahwell, lets save it.. it's only 32kb or something. And eventually the disk is full with never-2b-finished thingies.. time to create a next disk.
For some reason, ppl keep on thinking that there're about 10 potential unreleased musicdisks lying around here, which is not the case!

Didn't a case my rests before ? can we get back OT again and leave this never-ending discussion?