MSX asociation what kind of patents has?

The ROMS? and nothing more?

The msx slotting/subslotting?

The VDP or PSG structure or framework?

i mean, if somebody do a MSX hardware without the ROMS... is ilegal?

nope

Emulation is still a grey area.
For example, emulation of FM soundchips might violate patents on FM technology. Also, system architecture might be covered by copyright.

There is not enough jurisprudence to declare emulation of computer systems legal or illegal yet.

Is this not similar to the so called b-clones in the pc world, in that case,I think it's allowed.

If you create a new hardware, which is compatible with the MSX system, and doesnt use reverse engineering to do it (and of course, dont use the system Roms) then *I think* it is perfectly legal.

The catch is how to do something 100% compatible without reverse engineering the original...

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Also, system architecture might be covered by copyright.

Actually, that's covered by patent law entirely. Had the MSX system been patent-able at all, which it couldn't have been as it was based entirely on existing technology, it would have expired anyways... Apart from that, most hardware isn't covered by patents at all. It's just often not viable to patent things anymore. The most you'll see nowadays (except ofcourse the really big companies) is pending patents. By the time the patent would actually come through the technology is obsolete anyways...

but i want to know if, we do a MSX standard, emulating chips in FPGA it is diferent legally than to unsing the real chips? in a new msx mobo?

And what exactly was patented by the MSX asociation..

eMSX++ will be ilegal because it has or has emulated the msx architectured?

if we do a v9958 with compatible framework... in FPGA, it is ilegal? We need yamahaa licences? .... Just think that for do that we can't use the original chip design because is unavailable, so is needed to do a chip matrix from zero.

the same for PSG , the PPI is general purpose, not problem with that, so, not problem because the slooting indeed i think is unpatent-able..

the Z80 from zilog, if we do a z80 in FPGA??? is legal... IF not, how are NISHI planning to do one chip MSX.. got zilog licenses?

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Quote: Also, system architecture might be covered by copyright. Actually, that's covered by patent law entirely. Had the MSX system been patent-able at all, which it couldn't have been as it was based entirely on existing technology, it would have expired anyways... Apart from that, most hardware isn't covered by patents at all. It's just often not viable to patent things anymore. The most you'll see nowadays (except ofcourse the really big companies) is pending patents. By the time the patent would actually come through the technology is obsolete anyways...

This is yet another one of your bullshit posts I've been laughing my head off about.

If MSX was existing technology, why do most of the MSX chips have (c) ASCII Corp. on them?
ASCII helped design most of the chips (V9938, R800, Y8950, the MSX-ENGINE's etc).

Existing technology would be true for MSX1, but definitely not for MSX2 and up.

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The catch is how to do something 100% compatible without reverse engineering the original...

In most countries reverse engineering is still legal.

can be patented the way to connect a general purpose chip like the PPI ?

remember the PPI 255 was a chip older and a lot of olds computers got that.

i aren't talking about the s1985 or s1990 when i talk about msx engine...

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Emulation is still a grey area. There is not enough jurisprudence to declare emulation of computer systems legal or illegal yet.

Read and understand.

As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.

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This is yet another one of your bullshit posts I've been laughing my head off about.

First of all, I have asked you time after time to consider the way you react to posts. Use you're knowledge in a constructive manner, and don't try to insult people every time you are right or think you are.

Second, if you would spend less time laughing your head off and more time thinking or looking things up on the internet you would have found out that I am actually right on this one.

Copyright works for chips in the exact same manner as it works for software. You can copyright the code of your program, you cannot prohibit others to make a program that does exactly the same thing as your program does if it uses different code. The same goes for chips.

Why do you think virtually every much-used IC out there has at least 3 or 4 different pin-compatible and interexchangeable counterparts from all the other manufacturers? Sure, it says copyright, since you're automatically the copyright owner upon making something, but what is it worth? Nothing, unless people are going to make a photocopy of your silicon...

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If MSX was existing technology, why do most of the MSX chips have (c) ASCII Corp. on them? ASCII helped design most of the chips (V9938, R800, Y8950, the MSX-ENGINE's etc).

Because you are automatically the copyright owner of everything you 'write'. You don't need to do anything to earn copyright, except perhaps claim it before it becomes publicly available. This does not protect the methods and unique ideas used to obtain the effect though. This can only be done by means of a patent.

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Existing technology would be true for MSX1, but definitely not for MSX2 and up.

I was talking about the original MSX tho, which was pretty much a collection of generic components. Even for the MSX2 the same was applicable by large, except perhaps the V9938 and the odd Engine or FDC.

Making a 'chip' by means of FPGA that will serve the same purpose as the V9938 is in no manner illegal. You could still get sued by Yamaha, but eventually you'll win. Unless ofcourse Yamaha actually patented their V9938. I don't think they did though, and I can hardly think of any new or revolutionary technique used in the V9938 that is patentable.

This is what fly asked, and the answer is just that. As long as you don't copy any of the chips and don't use the BIOS, yes, you can make an MSX-compatible machine. Maybe that's why I'm typing this on a PC that doesn't have the letters IBM on the case. While you were busy laughing your head off other people might have realised that they have a PC clone at home...

So yes fly, it would indeed be possible to make an MSX clone. It would ofcourse be required to make a non-copyrighted set of MSX compatible ROMs and we would all have to look for nice MSX stickers to place on the case.

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Read and understand.

Practice what you preach my friend.

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As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.

Don't you mean copyright Guyver?

Copyright: you get this automatically if you make something. Copyright notices you see everywhere are useful so that someone else cannot claim he did not know about your copyright if you sue him, but are not required for the copyright itself. For MSX, copyrights are relevant for the system ROMs. I read that Microsoft owns those copyrights and MSX Association licensed them for use in Japan. There are copyrights on the chips as well, but those are mostly irrelevant as nobody is trying to make an exact copy of a chip; they're only trying to get the same functionality.

Trademark: a word or graphic you use to sell something. Can be registered to give you a better position in court, but this is not required. ASCII registered the MSX trademark in the early 80's. MSX Association reportedly had the registration moved to their name, although the last time I checked the online trademark database it was still registered to ASCII (maybe slow bureaucracy?). Trademarks become invalid if you stop using them or if you let others use them outside your control. That's why I think the MSX trademark has become invalid, no matter who has the registration for it. We've had this discussion before, so if you want more details, look in the forum archives.

Patent: if you invent something that didn't exist before, you can protect it with a patent. Unlike a copyright, a patent applies to any implementation of an idea. I don't know of any patents on technology found in MSX.

Conclusion: as far as I can see, it is completely legal to build an MSX as long as you find a replacement for the copyrighted system ROMs. For example, in openMSX we use C-BIOS as the default system ROMs.