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On topic, mrRudi is right. None of the old game companies will release new content for the MSX.

B*S*
It's completely nonsense to claim such things as you simply have no facts to back that claim up.

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Aiky is a nice exception, because you dare devils approached them about releasing your very good Guru Logic amateur game!

WRONG!!! Aiky was the one that did the contacting, not the other way around!

This has been explained often enough...

I guess it's a good sign that the sceptics/pessimists can no longer rely on facts to be pessimistic, they have to come up with bogus reasons now.

Man,

I'll be damn happy if you are right and soon we can see new "MSX1/MSX2/MSX2+/MSXTR/MSX Whatever"*) games from big companies on sale.
Anyway, you may call me pessimist or whatever but if you look at the market you'll see that without a real study it's not possible to be conclusive about the result of recent actions taken by MSX(*) Association or Project EGG.
Whatever you say, I will not support Project EGG or anything that complains about one using an "illegal game copy" and presenting an "Japanese Only" selling site. They are under their legal right, but I think when we talk about "legal rights" we are just a step before falling.

Anyway, I will really believe this dream became reality when those companies start to release MSX(*) games in a regular basis. NEW games.

Meanwhile I'll be programming for MSX(*).
Even if cannot use the MSX(*) logo.
My best wishes.

(*) MSX(*) is a trademark of MSX Association.
(yes, this is a recursive remark

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Meanwhile I'll be programming for MSX(*). Even if cannot use the MSX(*) logo. My best wishes. (*) MSX(*) is a trademark of MSX Association. (yes, this is a recursive remark

Hmmm... That whole MSX logo thingy doesn't sit well with people in South America does it?!? Let me elaborate...

Nothing has really changed. The MSX logo has always been a trademark. All the MSX Association did was clearly state that you *CAN* use the logo on your products if you want to. They just ask for two simple things.

1) Don't change the logo. (So no distorting or green on yellow MSX logo's)
2) Mention that the trademark is owned by the MSX association.

I don't see the big problem. What has changed?!? Did you really think the MSX logo wasn't protected before? Because it was... Always has been. All the MSX Association did is clearly state that you are *allowed* to use it. Point 2 is just a matter of law by the way. If you use someone else's trademark you are obliged, by law, to mention the owner of the trademark. Ever looked on the side/bottom of a game for the PC on any of the consoles?

I dunno, I don't see the big deal...

Indeed... From 1983 and on it was always "MSX is a trademark of Microsoft Corporation" and in the early 90's it changed to "MSX is a trademark of ASCII Corporation". Now, it changed to "MSX is a trademark of MSX Association".

Nothing more, nothing less.

You are still allowed to use the logo, just as you were 20 years ago.

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Whatever you say, I will not support Project EGG or anything that complains about one using an "illegal game copy" and presenting an "Japanese Only" selling site.

Project EGG is NOT COMPLAINING at all about "illegal game copy". Not even MRC is complaining, they are just against it. So if you don't want to support something, you maybe should not support MRC, because Project EGG does not say anything about illegal copying whatsoever.

Please get your facts straight.

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1) Don't change the logo. (So no distorting or green on yellow MSX logo's) 2) Mention that the trademark is owned by the MSX association. I dunno, I don't see the big deal...

Well, I had just made a joke over the ancient polemics about MSX logo. I don't really bother about the MSX logo (AFAIR, I had never used it anywhere). My intention is point out some differences between "We are the owners, we are comercial and you use as you want, but beware of our remarks" and "We love MSX, we are partners and we only would like to preserve MSX name and logo".
For the companies, everything is about making more money, and this is not different when we got companies talking about MSX. It is not about MSX love or something. This is not a bad thing (the main function of the companies is to gather profit, even if I think it should be produce quality products), but it's not a big deal too... It *can* be. There is a world between the "it can be" and the "it is".
I would not like to see those companies ripping off all softwares in the net, selling them for some time and, when profits lower even more... simply abandon everything. Again.
I am not saying this will happen. I just not like the possibility.This sort of act will place us back in 1995, when the MSX "internet scene" started.

I just think the entire thing is plain wrong. They should have started with new softwares for old versions os MSX (or emulator) while they develop the new machine. And *then* bother to reconquest the rights over old softwares, well packaged, in cartridges, disks, manuals, boxes... everything one real fan would like to see (and not the same stupid .ROM file we have been seeing for years in the internet).
New games would be a hell of a job from those companies... a *big* advertisement. *New* games would make everybody to support to protect those rights as everyone had done for games developed by sunrise and many others (Even I have lots of them, all original... and never copied them for anyone). And this would be made because people would see that the idea is *really* bring MSX back, and not only earn some extra bucks (almost) without effort.
When I talk about new hardware and software, I am not talking about PC-related software or hardware. I am talking about real MSX hardware, which I can plug into my MSX2+ and play music or whatever with it.

Maybe I am wrong, anyway. This is just *my opinion*.

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Project EGG is NOT COMPLAINING at all about "illegal game copy". Not even MRC is complaining, they are just against it.

Companies do no "complain" about people breaking their copyrights. They are just against it... and then they sue you in the local court. But I am really not worried about it. I am not against sell old software and I am not advocate of piracy.
I just think there is not big deal and no reason to be happy, singing "hip hip hurra". Old companies selling old games in a terrible fashion (CDs with .ROMs? ROMs attached to emulators?) is just a reason to be sad, not to be happy. This kind of selling activitie cannot even be used to test the market, since the market has completly different reactions to old and new products.
In other words: I am not against people asking money for what they own. I am against people "squeezing" a comunity to gather as much money as possible and then leave it again, as they had once before.

*Again*, I can be wrong... but what is leading me to this is the way the things are being done.

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So if you don't want to support something, you maybe should not support MRC, because Project EGG does not say anything about illegal copying whatsoever.

I will always visit the forums or the site, because I think running away does not make the situation any better.

Just a final question: is MRC supporting MSX users or MSX Association?
I believe the answer is *both*, but one thing always must be in first place.

There is a clear need for another MSX news portal and forum resource.

MRC is maintained really well by Snout, but the moderators impose an environment, which is much too oppressive and paranoid. This is probably OK for Netherlands, but doesn't make any sence to Russian, Spanish or Brazilian users.

A lot of really cool guys (Saeba, Ginseng, Ramones, SDSnatch) don't come here, because it's just too poluted with individuals who try to be "more Catholic then the Pope" in what they think is "right" for the "community".

In my humble opinion the MSX Community benefits more from unity than from separation. I would love to see some more MSX activity in any form (new hardware, software, magazines or websites), but I do think it's important there's a central place where all MSX user can meet and feel at home. The MCCM kind of had that role in the Netherlands for a long time and I personally have the (slightly arrogant) feeling MRC has moved towards that position on a more global level now.

If something doesn't make you feel at home at the MRC it's easy to yell 'MRC sucks, lets all pack our bags and leave', but I think it would be far more efficient to explain what's bothering you and see if we can find a solution for that matter. Trust me, we are always open to suggestions from our visitors. All you have to do is contact us, or discuss things publicly in the forums. If you have some big ideas about what the MRC should do apart from the things we are doing right now, you could even consider joining our team.

By the way, I'm not the only person maintaining the MRC, my opinions are not the unanimous opinions of all the people behind the MRC. There are 20 people making things work here. I couldn't do it all without them. I didn't code it all, I didn't draw a single pixel of GFX, I don't translate news to Spanish or Portuguese (and rarely to Dutch), I'm moderating less and less and I'm not making any decision on my own. This is who we are, and its likely more people will join in the future

As far as I'm concerned the forums aren't oppressive at all and especially the moderators aren't. I really think you're confusing some very active forum posters with moderators here. The only thing we don't tolerate is flames and links to warez. And trust me, any MSX Community site as big as MRC that doesn't follow that simple rule is bound to get in trouble sooner or later. We are not being paranoid, but have based our decision to be very strict about copyrights on quite a few 'legal' runins we had in the past. As I have explained in other threads as well: We don't want to jeopardize the MRC, that's why the policies are the way they are.

At the moment there is however a majority of active forum users that you could call 'more Catholic than the Pope'. If the cool guyz you mentioned stay away just because of that there's no chance a balance will ever appear. So I invite you, thinlizzy, Saeba, Ginseng, Ramones, SDSnatch and everyone else lurking around here to start joining the discussions and/or to keep giving your opinions. Only that way the MRC forums will become (and/or stay) a true reflection of the MSX community, as it should be. Keep in mind though that we are having discussions here, so a post on the MRC forums will always get reactions from people who agree and people who don't. I don't see what's wrong with that. If we all agreed on everything the MRC forums would be a very quiet place.

As long as you live up to the forum policies you can express any opinion you want. You can shout 'I love warez' from the rooftop, as long as you don't point out where to find them (or request them). You can say 'I hate the MSX revival' and explain why, but you can expect some people to disagree with you (just as you can expect people to disagree when you shout 'I love the MSX revival', for that matter).

$0.02

I don't hate the MSX revival

How I'd can hate such a thing which will never happen?

thinlizzy: you did it. You just made me smile

Maybe it's a cultural thing for Brazilian/Russian/Spanish people to be wary of companies...
I have a company too, are you going to be wary of me?! Will you think I do everything for money? Maybe I should charge for tniASM and GEM...

THINK ABOUT THIS: If a company did it JUST for the money, and NOT for the LOVE for MSX, then don't you think they would make MORE money doing SOMETHING ELSE than MSX?!

*shakes head* incredible... tsk

We talk about big companies here which have to make money to stay alive, especialy the japanese one cause the golden years are gone...

Now a lot Jp dpts have been lately decentralized to USA and there's even US companies develloping good selling product for a Japanese console nowadays...
The time where only Jap companies (or almost only) were releasing for Jap consoles/computers is over.

Even nintendo isn't the hegemony it used to be... They even had hard times with some of their products but thanks to GB and GBA they can still earn a lot of money.

Ppl working in Japanese video games companies have changed and as time passes by, there are less and less msx freaks working in those.

Money is the absolute keyword now in the video game industry, game are made so they can touch the max possible amount of ppl, game music MUST BE commercialy accurate so they can have larger sales on soundtracks than they had by the past. Plus they release on each consoles the same oldies and reharshals over and over again so it can slightly boost incomes...
There's a nostalgy wave and they jump on it, surely not for the love of an old software or hardware... Damn ! Is this so hard to understand ?
Don't expect them to throw money in devello new games for msx, if eventualy they do it, it will have to be as much "low cost" as possible.

The fact is clear, there are NO KNOWN project... Except gurulogic but it's not released as for today and it has not been made by any team member of the mentioned companies. So what ? Compile could only be just an exception there...

Egg is still not MSX dedicated, it's just dedicated to old jap softs for vintage jap hardware so sales are just more important.

In japan even if the MSX was popular it never was the NES, of course a fair amount of japanese user might want a revival and might do some effort for it... But even, japs are not known to love sharing with the rest of the world their beloved hardwares and softwares, even now in 2004 most of them are protectionists as hell !!

Even on the old systems which were popular enough in the rest of the world we hardly had half of the available games released in english. I don't even speak about the other systems which weren't able to reach acceptable sales out of japan !
We almost had to wait the PSX era to enjoy non jap versions of most of the available games. But wasn't it because of the huges sales ?

The real combat i'd like people to focus on (it's an utopia tho ) is making roms for such old systems legal. But for many titles (and of course the most intersting one) it's just impossible because they're still under commercial exploitation or they remain protected in case one day a commercial exploitation could eventualy be planned in case some precious money could be earned...

If you want to support that msx revival the way those japanese people want it to be and which you totaly agreed with, then start buying that MSX Player ! How many ppl had personaly bought it here ?

And moreover, what are all those secrets you like to talk about when some topics about the letters you received or the msx revival are brung on the forums ? Like if MSX was some secret US weapon anyway

Oh well, we didn't speak with all the people you talked with, we weren't in those japanese meetings full of very important and influent persons but untill now there isn't anything concrete enough but mostly blurry chimairas which aren't enough for us to start believing.

I think we would be all realy happy to see a " Decent " and " Fair " msx revival but the fact is just that we have actualy higher expectations than that...

I Can understand there are some ppl that need to believe so hard in an eventual msx revival, they can be potentialy satisfied with what has been achieved till now but it's realy not my case !

Hopefuly i'll change my mind only when i'll see something concrete and realy interesting coming.

About games, There are too much great msx games which were released so at least we only can be realy satisfied with new COMMERCIAL products which could at least match the quality and immersive potential of the old titles. Even now it would cost a fair amount of money to devello such a game so that means there should be enough potential buyers to avoid companies loosing money on it ! O_o

About the mrc forums it's still true a incredible amount of ppl tend to quit it on a regular basis, is it in normal proportions for such a forum ? Realy no ideas... but there are times when one should feel some changes have to be made.

With that am off, i'll run naked a bit in flowers fields for now !

Who's talking about being satisfied now?! Ofcourse not, but a little trust and patience is a good thing!!

Trust and patience... They seem to be rare traits, I think it's sad...

J-war, you had to define the terms commercial and Revival.
In your eyes commercial is everything you pay a price for and revival as the japanese way to regain interest in msx.
The real definition of commercial is that you GO for profit without hesitationto make it and may use it for everything they like andare therfore a company. A foundation such as MRC and Sunrise are e.g. allowed to act like a company and if they make profit they had to put that money obligated into the msx-system.
That are the fundemental differences between a commercial company and foundations, clubs. Revival is not the japanese version only
You contribute even yourself. So denying if it exists would be foulish.
To make visible what MSX Association does is for people who doesnot communicate with them hardly to understand. On my turn I am busy to make that a little bit more visible. See e..g the ese msx2- board that you can admire on fairs since they allowed it !

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Ppl working in Japanese video games companies have changed and as time passes by, there are less and less msx freaks working in those.

True, and not true at the same time. The 'big shots' are all still out there (as can be seen on the MSX Magazine Matsuri DVD), but more importantly: the Japanese gaming industry (both hardware and software side) is quite full of people aged 20-30 who grew up with MSX. Sure, times have changed, people moved to other companies, but I think that if you would investigate the amount of people in the Japanse computer industry who still know about MSX you'd be quite impressed.

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There's a nostalgy wave and they jump on it, surely not for the love of an old software or hardware... Damn ! Is this so hard to understand ? Don't expect them to throw money in devello new games for msx, if eventualy they do it, it will have to be as much "low cost" as possible.

Sure they want to make money with it. Part of which is being invested in the one chip MSX project. But the fact they are making money with it doesn't mean the don't love MSX. Or do you think Sunrise don't love MSX either? The fact that they dropped MSX in the past (and, indeed, might drop MSX again in the future) was regrettable, yet had understandable (economical) reasons. Nishi deeply apologized for dropping MSX at the time, but also explained why in his Tilburg 2001 lecture. Are you equally angry at others who dropped MSX in the past and returned to the MSX community later? Even I didn't do much with MSX between 1996 and 1999....

So far the MSX Revival has not lead to many changes some people were (and are still) afraid of. Despite the existance of the official MSX emulator people are still allowed to create their own emulators. MSX Association is even co-operating with the MSX community on getting both MSXPLAYer and other emulators better. People are still allowed to use the MSX logo under the same conditions as always: mention the owner of the trademark and if you're using it for commercial purposes contact MSX Association for licensing. Selling 10 disks on an MSX meeting isn't to be considered as commercial. in case you were wondering. The big MSX software archives (which contain quite a lot of non-legal software as well) are still online, despite the clear point of view of MSX Association against warez. If MRC had been screaming the locations of those websites from the rooftops things might have turned out quite differently on that matter, though. Fact is that MSX Association approaches the existing MSX community with respect. Compare that with what's been going on with Commodore/Tulip/Ironstone Partners/Yeahronimo and I think you'll agree that the MSX Association aren't as evil as some people like to make us believe after all.

The only discussion we keep having is that some people dislike the no-warez-policy on MRC. By sticking to these policies other websites have been kept out of the line of fire of Japanese companies. I don't know if it's going to stay that way forever, though.

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If you want to support that msx revival the way those japanese people want it to be and which you totaly agreed with, then start buying that MSX Player ! How many ppl had personaly bought it here ?

I did buy the MSXPLAYer, but I did not totally agree with 'those Japanese people'. MRC has succesfully defended several points of view on posting about and distributing 'grey area' things. Earlier on you already implicated we would have received one friendly letter containing a 'please do as we say' and us dropping to our knees crying 'sure! we won't do it again'. Well, fortunately that's not what happened at all

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And moreover, what are all those secrets you like to talk about when some topics about the letters you received or the msx revival are brung on the forums ? Like if MSX was some secret US weapon anyway

When one settles legal matters it's quite normal to agree to keep things confidential. Which is what we did. Really, you won't get any more from me than just the fact there has been communication on these matters with Japanese parties. In fact we keep all communication between the MRC and third parties (except for the funny hatemail) confidential by default. I personally think that's just a matter of common decency.

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About the mrc forums it's still true a incredible amount of ppl tend to quit it on a regular basis, is it in normal proportions for such a forum ? Realy no ideas... but there are times when one should feel some changes have to be made.

I think you're really overreacting here. I've not seen an 'incredible amount' of people quitting. And most of the people who have 'quit' in the past have returned by now. You might have noticed a lot has changed on the MRC recently. Some people have already noticed the changes, others haven't. It will take some time before the effect of those changes are clear to everyone around. In my previous post I have already suggested people who don't feel comfortable on the MRC (or who have some ideas to improve things in general) to contact us or even join our team. Keep in mind though that no admin, webmaster, moderator or translator of the MRC is 100% flawless. We make our mistakes, we don't have the psychic powers to notice you don't feel comfortable at the MRC unless you let us know.

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Maybe it's a cultural thing for Brazilian/Russian/Spanish people to be wary of companies... I have a company too, are you going to be wary of me?! Will you think I do everything for money? Maybe I should charge for tniASM and GEM... THINK ABOUT THIS: If a company did it JUST for the money, and NOT for the LOVE for MSX, then don't you think they would make MORE money doing SOMETHING ELSE than MSX?! *shakes head* incredible... tsk

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

I agree with Guyver here! *gets scared*

Companies are not the big evil of the world! Neither is making money a bad thing. Companies that try to make money on the system at this point do that because their feelings toward the system are warm enough to 'just do it and see where it leads'. That should be encouraged, not complained about.

Simply put: if there is no money to be made on MSX, the system will never be truly revived.