Yeah a bit too negative. Some things you say certainly make sense, but I don't see matching the features of Ys or Xak (on a technical level) as the biggest problem, I see the graphic quality/diversity and storyline implementation of those games as a more serious problem. I am confident the "amateur" coders on MRC are fully capable of writing a decent RPG engine that will perhaps even outdo the features of some of those RPG's.

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Umax RPG's were pretty cool... I think you're being too negative...

Not too negative, just been there, done that. Now I haven't seen PA3 (heard of it tho). How does it compare in "fun features/details" compared to XAK/SD Snatcher/YS ? How long/how many people did it take to make it ?

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Yeah a bit too negative. Some things you say certainly make sense, but I don't see matching the features of Ys or Xak (on a technical level) as the biggest problem, I see the graphic quality/diversity and storyline implementation of those games as a more serious problem. I am confident the "amateur" coders on MRC are fully capable of writing a decent RPG engine that will perhaps even outdo the features of some of those RPG's.

Re-read my post. I'm not saying the talent isn't there. I'm sure all those nice effects can be done by the current coders. I'm just saying I doubt anyone would have the time, motivation and energy to do it ALL. That goes for the code but also for the GFX and music.

Now people, I'd be the first pleased to see you prooved me wrong

It is a very ambitious project, definitely. For an RPG of the scope of SD-Snatcher or Dragon Slayer, you'd need at least very motivated people (that will stay motivated), about 3 coders, about 3 gfx dudes, about 3 composers, a bunch of testers, a script writer, a manager, etc, etc, etc. Either that, or 10 years time
Even with the team size I just described you can expect to be working on it with most of your free time for 2 years, and that's a positive estimate. However, gather enough people, and things will be easier, since you'd motivate each other and can share the work. Trust me, been there, done that

ANMA were with 2 .. Cas Cremers worked in a group of 2 (iirc) I'm sure Umax wasn't that big. These groups made some big games..

Mainly you're rite about motivation and stuff .. but imagine you would have like 2 or 3 really motivated ppl.. ppl who can do more than just their core-activity .. well those are the interesting ppl for projects like these.



ps. 1 composer will do fine

What I'd like to do sometime though is make a small RPG. Like the first disk Realms of Adventure, but then a bit bigger. I think that would be kinda charming, and after that one could always decide to make a bigger one.

Btw, Pumpkin Adventure 3 was a pretty big game, and Umax also made the popular RPG Pumpkin Adventure 2 before that, and after that Lost World. Now PA3 was definately the coolest of the three, but all were, well, pretty big with cool gameplay, ok graphics and a nice story.


~Grauw

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ANMA were with 2 .. Cas Cremers worked in a group of 2 (iirc) I'm sure Umax wasn't that big. These groups made some big games.. Mainly you're rite about motivation and stuff .. but imagine you would have like 2 or 3 really motivated ppl.. ppl who can do more than just their core-activity .. well those are the interesting ppl for projects like these. ps. 1 composer will do fine

You forget the part about 'free time' tho All the groups you mentioned were a lot younger and going to school and stuff. Now, these same people will have a lot less free time to spend on making a game. Of most people that responded to this thread I suspect that free time isn't as plenty as during school times anymore

Hmm... Since I'm the one actually coding this, I'll put in a word too... I think what Maggoo's trying to point out is that there's a limit to what one person can do in a restricted amount of time. I for one fully agree with him.

I don't want to crush anyone's dreams, but I'm not about to make an 'Illusion City plus all the stuff they should have also put in' engine. I am making a very basic engine, somewhat in between SD Snatcher and Xak3.

It needs to work on most MSX2 computers, so it will not be fast, and it will not be 'wow'. If you want a 'wow' engine with multilayer support, smooth scrolling and stunning animations I suggest you start coding. This won't be it.

I also don't, and won't, care about what you all think an MSX can or cannot easily do. I only know what I can do on an MSX, and if that's not enough for you, well, I'm very sorry...

If I *do* manage to finish it, which isn't for sure at all, we would hopefully end up with an engine that requires no coding to be molded into an RPG. As you can understand, it will have its limitations and will take quite some time to code.

And yes, free time is a big issue, especially if you're juggling several projects at the same time. (which I know you shouldn't but always end up doing anyways.) So, if I actually finish this, you will not be saying 'wow'.

Eventhough it will probably lack the 'wow' factor, I think it's better to have something on a shorter term than nothing at all. You would have a nice tool though, with which you could make a nice scrolling RPG without having to code.

But anyways... Before everyone goes crazy thinking along the lines of YS VII, sorry, but that's not what this is going to be. It would probably not be an action RPG either (Xak/Fray) since that's a bit difficult too.

Think along the lines of PA3, and hopefully we'll be able to bring out something like that. But still, since I'm a pretty bad coder, don't get your hopes up... I did indeed manage to, somehow, make the engine scroll along with collision dectection and a properly moving player sprite...

Aight... See yas...



ps. 1 coder will do fine

ps. Fray has a GREAT engine iyam.. smoooooth and big animations etc. cooltiedoodliedooohooo

Ro: Fray's engine is indeed also great. After Ys, I like Fray best.

~Grauw

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Hmm... Since I'm the one actually coding this

You are? Great! I'm very curious to see results when you have any!

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I don't want to crush anyone's dreams, but I'm not about to make an 'Illusion City plus all the stuff they should have also put in' engine. I am making a very basic engine, somewhat in between SD Snatcher and Xak3.

Then you're already the first to make a scrolling RPG engine on MSX2 who does NOT commute to a company like Micro Cabin every day

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It needs to work on most MSX2 computers, so it will not be fast, and it will not be 'wow'. If you want a 'wow' engine with multilayer support, smooth scrolling and stunning animations I suggest you start coding. This won't be it.

I think we somewhat went offtopic here indeed, fantasizing about what would be the most stunning RPG engine. I think an engine really doesn't need too much features. As long as it's functional and nicely playable, it's fine. Of course one can always try and see what else can be incorporated if such a standard has been created.

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I also don't, and won't, care about what you all think an MSX can or cannot easily do. I only know what I can do on an MSX, and if that's not enough for you, well, I'm very sorry...

You won't hear me complaining about that

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So, if I actually finish this, you will not be saying 'wow'.

Leave that up to us, please

And ehrm, if you'd be willing to cooperate with others for the graphics/music/script etc. parts, maybe your engine can simultaneous to the development bring on a new RPG already? Or am I being too bold here?

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You are? Great! I'm very curious to see results when you have any!

Well, I'm trying to at least

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Then you're already the first to make a scrolling RPG engine on MSX2 who does NOT commute to a company like Micro Cabin every day

Hurray for firsts! I think Akin could be seen as an RPG tho...

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I think we somewhat went offtopic here indeed, fantasizing about what would be the most stunning RPG engine. I think an engine really doesn't need too much features. As long as it's functional and nicely playable, it's fine. Of course one can always try and see what else can be incorporated if such a standard has been created.

Well, I'd love to do all those nice features, but I probably can't. It's really irritating to hear people say, 'Oh, but MSX can do that easy!', 'Oh, but that's nothing, piece of cake' only to then realize those same people aren't even trying. I guess that's why my post might have seemed a bit grumpy. Shame on me

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You won't hear me complaining about that

Good, 'cause I hate constructive critiscism.

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Leave that up to us, please

Well, you might say wow because of the RPG, prolly not because of the engine. Like I said, expect something along the lines of PA3, only scrolling. The viewport must ofcourse be smaller since the RPG scrolls.

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And ehrm, if you'd be willing to cooperate with others for the graphics/music/script etc. parts, maybe your engine can simultaneous to the development bring on a new RPG already? Or am I being too bold here?

Well, actually... that's how the whole thing got started. Wolf wanted an all purpose engine (well, multiple purpose) that could be made into an RPG without coding. I agreed on the condition that at least one good RPG be made. I first want to get some coding done though, since a zer0code RPG is a tall order, close to the impossible.

To give an idea: Just the scrolling part, which is 'easy', needs to take a number of factors into account.

1) The size of the viewport.
2) The position of the viewport.
3) The size of the map.
4) The size of the player sprite.
5) The point at which to start scrolling.

Normally most of these are fixed values that can be hard-coded directly into the code. Well, apart from map size for most RPG's. I need to get all these variables from a table which ofcourse slows things down quite a bit.

The nightmare still to come is scripting. This will truely be a giant pain and will probably be the making/breaking point of the RPG. But, we'll see how things work out... I hope they do...

now we're at it anyway ... the RPG will naturally have text.. AZ, 09, a handful of symbols .. let's say 45 characters. If they're 8x8, then it'll fit in 256x16 pixels. If it's 8*16, then it'll fit in 256x32. Now.. I suggest to keep the text-sizes open so that translations can be made for languages with more characters. Think accent-characters for Spanish/Portuguese. Now, what about Japanese? How many chars do you need then? And can they be made in a 8x8 or 8x16 resolution properly?

I dunno much about Japanese ofcourse, but sometimes I see 'simple' chars and 'complex' chars.. I bet you can't do the complex stuff in 8x8 ? Or am I mixing-up Japanese and Chinese now?

About fonts; Bombaman has all those fonts, with accents or Japanese letters in a 8x8 font. For the Japanese font, we just took them from the Turbo R and modified those a bit. So, basically you could make do with an 8x8 font, but other sizes are always nice to use

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Normally most of these are fixed values that can be hard-coded directly into the code. Well, apart from map size for most RPG's. I need to get all these variables from a table which ofcourse slows things down quite a bit.

You could use self-modifying code... But does it really slow down that much?