I totally agree, I'm so sure that with Symstudio, there will be people that will want to code their own apps for the OS. It's a true Delphi like development enviroment.

I know that SymbOS is being developed around the TREX C1 board with an Altera Cyclone EP1C6Q248C8 FPGA. The FPGA has about 6K LEs so at first sight seems pretty small to fit the actual MSX1 (and MSX2?) platform; but I've found a project that implements a Colecovision over an EP1C12Q240C8, the same as the one in OCM (12K LEs) and the total occupation numbers are :

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; Total logic elements ; 3,217 / 12,060 ( 26 % ) ; ; Total pins ; 139 / 173 ( 80 % ) ; ; Total virtual pins ; 0 ; ; Total memory bits ; 204,800 / 239,616 ( 85 % ) ; ; Total PLLs ; 1 / 2 ( 50 % )

Only 3217 LEs used for a Z80 (open source T80 core), a TMS992xA VDP and a SN76489AN PSG. The AY-8910 is the same used in CPC TREX platform, so all the individual cores seems that are disposables. Could be possible to integrate all of them on a TREX C1 and create a MSX1 platform?. I've doubts about the "Total memory bits", seems that it could be a limiting factor...

Take a look at :

The FPGA Colecovision project

The .VID files shown in the videos are converted from PC mpeg/avi using the PC based symbos IDE SymStudio. Currently this can convert into the .vid format for 4 or 16 colours for the CPC, and at various resolutions. As yet it does not capture audio, but I hope to add this feature at some stage.
Other features as yet not implemented will be subtitling and key control. This means that in theory you could convert a lazerdisk game like "dragons lair" and run it purely within the SymPlay application.

I believe the tool will eventually combine MSX and CPC graphics data (the bitmap layout differs) into 1 file so as to maintain the cross platform side of symbos. Compression so far isn't implemented as decompression requires more time than a slightly larger binary, and given that hard drives are so large that is hardly an issue.

The capture tool can also capture GIF's, or convert BMP/JPEG/PNG etc. So this means that it would be very useful for artists, developing or porting games etc. I also really hope to have a method of developing msx/cpc game graphics side by side, though this may prove unfeasible.

Can I just say on the coding side of Symbos, its unlike z80 coding you've seen before as its truely event driven, and object based. The whole idea behind symstudio was to make symbos easier to code for than any existing 8-bit system. Obviously in it's current "z80 Assembler" only form it won't be that easy, but I'm planning to have SymVisual done by the time Prodatron finishes the MSX2 port

Rob

Hi,

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If a significant part of this capacity is used by the OS, then the applications would only be able to use a limited amount of CPU time and memory.

SymbOS uses about 10% CPU time by itself on a CPC. Some people would say, this is terrible much, some others would say, this is nothing. Regarding the memory it requires 77KB ram. This is already something, and on an unexpanded 128K CPC it doesn't make much fun. On the other hand, if you have an expanded system, applications can do a lot more with all the memory because of the powerfull memory management.

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Therefore, some part of the OS and some parth of the application *MUST* share those 64 KB. Memory swapping introduces further delays.

In SymbOS an application runs in its own 64KB area, so it can have up to 63KB in one piece. Only when the OS is active, it swaps parts of the application ram in its OS ram area. The memory swapping is very fast on the CPC, just one OUT to set any possible bank configuration. I think, that on the MSX you will need up to 4 OUTs, but I hope, this won't slow down the OS in a significant way.

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I prefer no multitasking and pure 100% dedicated applications.

I prefer to have everything, what I currently need, at the same time in the memory/on my "desktop", so that I can switch with one click between the different applications and tools. The video I made was of course just a demonstration, how extreme the multitasking can be in SymbOS. You won't have such a situation all the time But as an example having always fast access to the file browser, playing tunes in the background and running an instant messenger, while I am working with an additional application is something really usefull.

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http://toastytech.com/guis/index.html

This is another huge GUI screen shot collection and information data base:
www.guidebookgallery.org/guis

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For me, MSX is not a past machine: is a present machine. And now, it can be time for a graphical OS. And as PC systems: if you don't want to use it, don't use it

You are completely right. Please don't forget, that the MSX2 is more powerful than the Amstrad CPC! On the CPC SymbOS already runs very nice, and because of the optimized OS routines (screen and disc access) SymbOS applications are even faster than many compareable old CPC software for the "normal" single tasking/non GUI CPC OS.

I still have a good feeling about the MSX port, and I am finishing SymbOS 1.0 currently to be able to start with the port hopefully at the end of April.

CU,
Prodatron

How would multitasking work on the MSX? Don't you need hardware to generate interrupts so that you can divide the CPU time up into little bits?

Prolly IM2 interrupts or even VDP generated interrupts...

Do you know this app?

I think that Dumas and SymbOS would be quite damn good companions.

Nice background.

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How would multitasking work on the MSX? Don't you need hardware to generate interrupts so that you can divide the CPU time up into little bits?

As far as I read you have a 50 or 60Hz interrupt generated by the VDP. I would use this one. On the CPC I use a 100Hz interrupt. But it won't make a big difference, if I have half of the frequency. In general most tasks behave "cooperative".

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Do you know this app?

I started to work on the frontend for this jabber based instand messenger client, called "SymChat". I just wanted to see, how it would look like. But currently I want to finish SymbOS 1.0, as I can't wait for starting the MSX port with your help.

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I think that Dumas and SymbOS would be quite damn good companions.

Who's dumas?

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Nice background.

The newest beta of Tobys great ViewMSX tool displays all SGX files (SymbOS graphic files www.symbos.de/download.htm#marke3) and even VID files (SymbOS video files). I also want to integrate at least msx SC6 support in the SymSee picture viewer for SymbOS.

CU,
Prodatron

Quote:

Quote: How would multitasking work on the MSX? Don't you need hardware to generate interrupts so that you can divide the CPU time up into little bits? As far as I read you have a 50 or 60Hz interrupt generated by the VDP. I would use this one. On the CPC I use a 100Hz interrupt. But it won't make a big difference, if I have half of the frequency. In general most tasks behave "cooperative".

Indeed, the VDP interrupt would be just fine. If needed though, it would be very easy to double this to 100Hz/120Hz using a simple line-interrupt. All it takes is a few OUTs.

Quote:

Quote: Do you know this app? I started to work on the frontend for this jabber based instand messenger client, called "SymChat". I just wanted to see, how it would look like. But currently I want to finish SymbOS 1.0, as I can't wait for starting the MSX port with your help.

It would be very nice to get started indeed. It'll be a lot of work, but I really think it'll be worth it. SymbOS looks like a very promising OS, and it'll look even sweeter on Screen 7 while using the mouse.

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Quote: I think that Dumas and SymbOS would be quite damn good companions. Who's dumas?

Dumas is an upcoming ethernet adaptor for MSX. It's very similar to the ObsoNET cart you can read about on this site, but it has a few extras. It's not yet emulated though, so it prolly won't be implemented in SymbOS for a while, I guess...

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Quote: Nice background. The newest beta of Tobys great ViewMSX tool displays all SGX files (SymbOS graphic files www.symbos.de/download.htm#marke3) and even VID files (SymbOS video files). I also want to integrate at least msx SC6 support in the SymSee picture viewer for SymbOS.

Hush, hush! Even MSX users didn't know that yet!

Prodatron: Dumas is a upcoming project which is a Ethernet + USB port + 512 KB ram in one cartridge. It is still under heavy development, but I think it's strongly delayed because the USB interface. But with USB interface we will be able to use pendrives, keyboards, etc... for example. But now much MSX users have IDE or SCSI interfaces or external memory, so actually, I am waiting for Dumas because of the Ethernet (I want a obsonet now ). Also, it uses only a SLOT which is a very good feature and it's another reason for buying it.

Good to know that latest beta of ViewMSX supports Symbos files

Yours,

Seems, that Dumas is exaclty, what SymChat would need :-)
One question about Dumas:
Does it have an own TCP/IP management? Currently there is a new extension for the CPC in development, which includes an ethernet connector, a TCP/IP management microcontroller (AVR) and a buffer for outgoing/incoming pakets.
If there is nothing like this for the MSX2, could we use already existing TCP/IP stack software?

CU,
Prodatron

There is a TPC/IP suite called InterNestorLite (INL) which can use Obsonet or Dumas.

You can find it here: http://www.konamiman.com

Yours,