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| MSX Revival: YES or NO
| Latok
msx master
Berichten: 1724 |  Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 20:20 | This topic is for discussing the MSX Revival.
Do you have positive or negative feelings about it? What's the position of the MSX Association? Do you agree with their copyright policies? Will it affect the MSX amateur scene? And if it does, in what way?
You can spit it out all here.
| | GuyveR800
msx guru
Berichten: 3048 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 22:32 | MSX has always been an open and free platform. Everybody was allowed to manufacture MSX computers, and everybody was allowed to make software for it. Unlike Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft consoles, where you have to apply to those companies to get your product approved, you could do so freely.
This will not change. So for the amateur MSX community nothing will change. Even if there comes a new computer with 'MSX Zero' on it, everybody can still make games for MSX2, MoonSound, Gfx9000 (yay! ^_^) or whatever they want.
On the subject of copyright; the (illegal) ROMs and diskimages on the internet are NOT their copyright and so they cannot say much about it. But ofcourse they can disallow any person or website to use their logo if it stores illegal material, that is their right.
With the MSX PLAYer being loads better than I expected, I guess it's about on the same level as NLMSX (with the exception of turboR and MSX-AUDIO ofcourse), I can only wholeheartedly say "YES!" to the MSX Association and do my best to positively affect the MSX Revival!
| | sander
msx addict
Berichten: 335 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 22:37 | Well, I've read the manifest on the msxall website. I can understand their feelings. However, they speak if they are the only one representing the community. Which is simply not true to say the least.
I'm not sure there will be a new MSX. Or any compatible device.
I for myself like the efforts of ASCII and the MSX Association. I don't really think that any product they make and sell will have any influence on the current MSX scene. That scene will stay and continue to do the things they did in the past.
Maybe the MSX revival will make some new MSX users, hardware or software. I cheer for any commercial effort in that direction.
Let's face it: did the Japanese ever listen to worldwide users when they released the MSX2+ or TurboR? No. Why? Because the Japanese market was the only market at that time where the MSX userbase was still strong enough to release new hardware. It is still the only market in the world where people are eager to try new electronic toys and pay for them.
Of the 3 million MSX users that existed in the past, 66% lived in Japan. No wonder ASCII and other companies try their new things there first.
One of the reasons sales dropped in Europe and other countries was the illegal copying. Therefor I really think it's a shame that a new MSX site starts - apart from the fact that I welcome any new MSX site- with releasing copies of illegal copyrighted MSX software.
I really think that is the worst you can do at this moment, no matter how you feel about ASCII or the MSX Association.
| | GuyveR800
msx guru
Berichten: 3048 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 22:54 | Quote:
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Of the 3 million MSX users that existed in the past, 66% lived in Japan. No wonder ASCII and other companies try their new things there first.
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I think ASCII and Nishi being japanese has more to do with it it than the so-called 'installed userbase' 
It's common practice to try out new products on home soil, it makes no sense to immediately start working overseas. Doing that is a sure way to failure.
We'll just have to be a bit more patient! Remember we get all the news lightning fast now! Back in the old days we'd have to wait 2 months before the next MSX magazine came out before anybody even had a CLUE of what was going on in japan. | | mth
msx freak
Berichten: 189 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 23:20 | Quote:
| Do you agree with their copyright policies?
|
The policy itself is (in Bernard's translation) pretty relaxed, but it worries me that a policy is needed at all.
By the way, there is a difference between copyright and trademark. Is there anyone here with sufficient legal knowledge to explain the the consequences of each?
Quote:
| Unlike Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft consoles, where you have to apply to those companies to get your product approved, you could do so freely.
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As far as I know, anyone can create products for those consoles. However, it is very hard to do so. Without a devkit and without official docs, it is a lot harder to program a console. You would have to create the copy protection necessary to have unchipped consoles accept your CD/DVD. Also you would need a separate distribution channel. But it is not illegal. Sony tried to stop Datel from making cheating devices + software, but they were unsuccesfull.
Quote:
| With the MSX PLAYer being loads better than I expected, I guess it's about on the same level as NLMSX (with the exception of turboR and MSX-AUDIO ofcourse)
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How can you compare those emulators when MSX PLAYer does not allow you to run any ROM or DSK image you want? I'm not surprised MSX PLAYer can handle the software released for it, because if it couldn't, they would not have released that software.
| | snout
msx legend
Berichten: 4991 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 23:29 | Quote:
| How can you compare those emulators when MSX PLAYer does not allow you to run any ROM or DSK image you want? I'm not surprised MSX PLAYer can handle the software released for it, because if it couldn't, they would not have released that software.
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MSXPLAYer doesn't work with ROM and DSK files, but it DOES work with real genuine floppy disks. Working on some emulator comparison tests already  | | Latok
msx master
Berichten: 1724 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 23:33 | Quote:
| By the way, there is a difference between copyright and trademark. Is there anyone here with sufficient legal knowledge to explain the the consequences of each?
|
I studied law, but I don't have the sufficient legal knowledge if it concerns intellectual rights. It's definitely not the direction I've studied. I know Arnoud Engelfriet (correctly spelled) wrote a lot of articles in the PC Active on this subject. I think he knows the ins and outs (and didn't study law for that matter  ) | | GuyveR800
msx guru
Berichten: 3048 | Geplaatst: 04 Januari 2003, 23:42 | Quote:
| The policy itself is (in Bernard's translation) pretty relaxed, but it worries me that a policy is needed at all.
|
o.O Would you feel fine about your name showing up on warez (or worse, porn) sites?!
Quote:
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>>Unlike Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft consoles, where you have to apply to those companies to get your product approved, you could do so freely. <<
As far as I know, anyone can create products for those consoles. However, it is very hard to do so.
<CUT>
But it is not illegal. Sony tried to stop Datel from making cheating devices + software, but they were unsuccesfull.
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I never said it was illegal. But Nintendo WILL sue, even though they know you're in your rights. And you WILL lose, because you just don't have the money to countersue and pay your lawyers throughout all the appeals.
So-called 'unlicensed' games haven't appeared for years, because of the above mentioned reason.
Quote:
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>>With the MSX PLAYer being loads better than I expected, I guess it's about on the same level as NLMSX (with the exception of turboR and MSX-AUDIO ofcourse)<<
How can you compare those emulators when MSX PLAYer does not allow you to run any ROM or DSK image you want? I'm not surprised MSX PLAYer can handle the software released for it, because if it couldn't, they would not have released that software.
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Well my current game doesn't run on most emulators. It runs fine on MSX2 (3.58 or 7 MHz), turboR (Z80 or R800), NLMSX, MSX PLAYer(!). It does not run at all on fMSX-SDL and is flawed on openMSX(!).
As snout said, MSX PLAYer runs disks, but not ROMs or diskimages. Just like it should. | | snout
msx legend
Berichten: 4991 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 13:13 | Quote:
| One of the reasons sales dropped in Europe and other countries was the illegal copying. Therefor I really think it's a shame that a new MSX site starts - apart from the fact that I welcome any new MSX site- with releasing copies of illegal copyrighted MSX software.
I really think that is the worst you can do at this moment, no matter how you feel about ASCII or the MSX Association.
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Hear hear! | | snout
msx legend
Berichten: 4991 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 13:22 | Ok, in our newspost reactions there were many opinions on the MSX Revival. I'd like to quote a few in order to continue the discussion here.
Mark Jelsma wrote: Quote:
| i agree with them in some way... just as i reacted on that post here. It does not mean im Antie MSX A but they should (though they have the right) not be like that. Commercializing something that was abandoned by the commercial companies seems not to be that easy at all!
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Jalu wrote: Quote:
| Well, indeed I can imagine the disgruntled reactions of some users, but, on the other hand, all of us knew that there always was a risk that, at some point in the future, these companies would reclaim their copyrights. For instance, I can imagine Konami would *not* be very pleased with a wide-spread English version of Metal Gear:Solid Snake, if or when they would decide to rerelease the game on whatever computer- or console system of today. I do think that if there will be commercial activities concerning MSX in the 21st century, we will just have to learn to live with the fact once again that commercial companies will protect their intellectual property in any possible way. Let's all not forget that it was illegal copying which caused the European death of MSX in the late eighties...
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GuyveR800 wrote: Quote:
| We were never 'able to do what we wanted'. MSX and the MSX logo has always been trademarked. All we have been able to do was work without ASCII prosecuting or demanding license fees. Everybody has to realize MSX and the MSX logo has never been 'free'. MSX Association is giving us an official statement saying we can use the MSX logo without paying anything. This is truly extraordinary. And Jorito, companies have sued over a game idea. Konami has ruthlessly, relentlessly and vigorously sued Jaleco, and won, purely for making other music and rithm based games. The MSX scene should consider itself PRIVILEGED. What MSX Association is doing here is ACKNOWLEDGING the existance of an amateur scene that has kept alive MSX for all these years. With this, they are saying "thank you"!!!
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mau_rizio wrote: Quote:
| I'm happy After 10 year of oblivion, msx has officially a new life. I dont't know if it will be a real life or just a good-for-a-museum life (now they are doing this), i don't care. I will continue to use msx as i'm doing now just adding the official msx logo if i relase something. What changes for me? Nothing, unitl i learn japanese or msx association translates msxpalyer & games in english. I hope that this will be a real new life for msx and some new great games will be developed by talented softco.
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msxall wrote: Quote:
| One important thing: this is not MY movement or MSX-ALL movement. We just offered space on our server and helped on the development of that document. But there are lots of persons who agree with the Manifest... More than disagree! Although, this is not a WAR, its only a Manifest from people who wnat to be listened by the company who decides to back, or, maybe, be more infromed what they have been planning! I have been using MSX for so long, since 1984. I did work in a important brazilian magazine called CPU-MSX and I was business man in a brazilian Marketing market. I saw the MSX starting, growing up and being death by the hands of companies like ASCII and others. I have good friends who works in companies like Microsoft, IBM, Sun and others, and one of these friends is called Mauro Muratorio Not, one of the big guys on the Microsft South America. Why do I have exposing you that? Just for one reason, I met Bill Gates personaly thanks him, almost two times, and I know what he and Nishi had planned that time for the MSX (they didn't wonder that MSX became to be what it is today). So, try to connect this informations with other informations from other sources and pay attention in how ASCII have been working... Because this I really do not have good feeling about this NEW MSX. Probably they will create some chip based on the MSX technology and maybe (just maybe) they produce some machines from the japanese market. Think about: in the actual maket does not have available space for machines like MSX. Do you think that ASCII will create some "dream machine" to make us happy? Of course not! They have other inttentions!!! Other market to supply! But, all our work in cathalog and organize everything about MSX may be called "warez" in few time! Everybody who have been suporting this movement do not care what ASCII will do with his property (MSX), but we want to keep using our MSX machines like we have been doing all this years, without any restriction. We hould like to help too, but they do not care! And, if they create something good, they will have our integral support, but, until now, we do not know nothing about nothing and for all this reasons we do not believe on the good intentions of ASCII and MSX Association. Is ASCII back? They should thanks to us (you, me and everybody. All MSX users)!!! By the way, of course we respect your opinions, but try to respect ours too. Bullshit is stay sited, clapping about something that probably will not be what you want! Anyway, I hope that we are wrong and that we need to say "sorry" to ASCII and MSX Association in the future... Best Regards Julio Marchi MSX-ALL Team Coordinator
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GuyveR800 wrote: Quote:
| Basically you are filthy pirates! You say it will become 'warez', but guess what? IT ALREADY IS! There is no such thing as 'abandonware', it's all just an excuse for piracy, because there is nothing legal about it! And you keep talking about what ASCII will do, but they are just publishing MSX Magazine! The new MSX has very little to do with ASCII. And neither them nor MSX Assoc. has copyright of games made by others. And how can you say more people agree than disagree to your so-called manifest? It is full of errors and wrong information, I doubt anyone with a decent IQ will support it... I think you should calm down and start understanding from the beginning.
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msxall wrote: Quote:
| I will NOT start a discussion with you about that. Reaction like yours shows that some conversation will be impossible. Sentences like: "I doubt anyone with a decent IQ will support it... " shows that you are arbitrary person. The BIGGEST VOICE! THE ONE! I really sorry for your words and your hard feelings about different opinions and free expression. So, take a look at the following links and observe how many people does not have enough IQ: http://www.fixato.nl/msx-boards/viewthread.php?tid=477 and http://www.fixato.nl/msx-boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=64. I think YOU should calm down, try to be more polite and TRY to understand the manifest from the beginning. You do not need to agree or participate, but shows some respect for the others. Julio Marchi - MSX-ALL Team
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snout (hey! that's me!) wrote: Quote:
| msxall: if you read the article on Kazuhiko Nishi's lecture in Tilburg, 2001. You should already have know that Nishi has thanked the MSX users for continuing to use the system and he said he was very sorry to drop MSX. He said "In the early nineties, i dropped MSX. It was a mistake". Also, it is not true that the MSX Association does not want to listen to you. There have been several attempts to get in touch with brazilian MSX hardware developers. So far, these developers did not seem to be very interested to help thinking on the one chip design. As BiFi suggested, this topic is moved to the forum. Lets continue over there.
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Mark Jelsma wrote: Quote:
| as we know. guyve and i are totally opposite. I feel that the manifesto describes my thoughts very well. And this does not mean (GUYVE) that i have a low IQ (Never expected u to say such). The line, "The MSX users' and developers' community" is wrong imo.
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| | mth
msx freak
Berichten: 189 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 13:54 | Quote:
| if you read the article on Kazuhiko Nishi's lecture in Tilburg, 2001.
|
As far as I know, Nishi is not directly involved in the operation of MSX Association. Nasu and others are running it. Their ideas may not be the same as what Nishi talked about in his Tilburg lecture. For example, MSX PLAYer was not released under an open source license, unlike Nishi announced in his lecture.
| | snout
msx legend
Berichten: 4991 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 14:01 | Quote:
| As far as I know, Nishi is not directly involved in the operation of MSX Association. Nasu and others are running it. Their ideas may not be the same as what Nishi talked about in his Tilburg lecture. For example, MSX PLAYer was not released under an open source license, unlike Nishi announced in his lecture.
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The MSX Association website mentions Kazuhiko Nishi being the chairman of the MSX Association.
The MSXPLAYer wasn't released as open source, probably mainly because of the licensing problems with Microsoft. The MSX Association is still attempting to get rid of these problems, but it won't be easy. (Microsoft eh? ) | | mth
msx freak
Berichten: 189 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 14:16 | Quote:
| The MSX Association website mentions Kazuhiko Nishi being the chairman of the MSX Association.
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But is he actually involved in the decision making? I thought he was teaching/researching PLDs in the USA?
Quote:
| The MSXPLAYer wasn't released as open source, probably mainly because of the licensing problems with Microsoft. The MSX Association is still attempting to get rid of these problems, but it won't be easy. (Microsoft eh? )
|
Licensing what from Microsoft? The only things MSX-related that Microsoft owns is the BIOS and BASIC. For releasing the emulator source code, they would have to arrange something with Marat. However, they could always release a patch containing their changes to the fMSX version they started with. There is really no legal issue that is preventing them from releasing (at least part of) the MSX PLAYer source.
There is a business reason though: if they release the source, anyone can make a player that looks and feels like MSX PLAYer, but accepts software from other sources. For example plain ROM and DSK images. Or encrypted packages from a different distributor. That might have a negative impact on their sales. So the decision not to release the sources tells us something about their priorities: sales versus helping the MSX community build better emulators.
| | snout
msx legend
Berichten: 4991 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 14:25 | Quote:
| Licensing what from Microsoft? The only things MSX-related that Microsoft owns is the BIOS and BASIC. For releasing the emulator source code, they would have to arrange something with Marat. However, they could always release a patch containing their changes to the fMSX version they started with. There is really no legal issue that is preventing them from releasing (at least part of) the MSX PLAYer source.
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OF COURSE THERE IS!
They are not allowed to spread the MSX-BIOS, but certainly they are also not allowed to release software on which you can use illegal MSX-BIOS-es without a problem. Besides. They have to PAY to Microsoft, which means they have to earn money, which means different objectives for the current project.
imho you simply cannot release the source of a program (or the source of a patch) when the program itself isn't free. Especially when there are legal issues with the program itself already. It would be the same thing as: you aren't allowed to copy CD-Audio. But here you have the original master tapes. Have fun with it.
Quote:
| So the decision not to release the sources tells us something about their priorities: sales versus helping the MSX community build better emulators.
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No, this is an OFFICIAL emulator. If they want this and future projects to be a success, they need the support of other companies. Not only Microsoft, but also the software companies of which they want to re-release software. Konami, Compile, T&E, Microcabin etc. will not be interested in re-releasing software for an emulator that can run pirated versions that are widely available on the web already. The MSXPLAYer project isn't an amateur project, it's an official, legal, business project. Like it or not, it changes the possibiblities in both positive (other companies might get interesting again) and negative (limited functionality compared to other emulators, because of legal issues) aspects. | | sander
msx addict
Berichten: 335 | Geplaatst: 05 Januari 2003, 14:49 | And please note this: if the MSX player doesn't become profitable, the whole revival will end just there. So if you say that it's a shame that the MSX player doesn't play hacked roms or diskimages, think again. Chances are that you are missing the big picture then.
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