still, i would only use an emu that can run illegal shit. So far, no MSXPLAYer for me. Has nice skins though



Why? As developer i need to use the emu to its full extend. Since my real MSX is put away, i can only develop on PC with an emu. But i am not so stupid to work with silly disks on a PC.

Quote:

They are not allowed to spread the MSX-BIOS, but certainly they are also not allowed to release software on which you can use illegal MSX-BIOS-es without a problem.

Not true. CD-writers can illegally copy many CDs without a problem. Yet stores are allowed sell them. It is the responsiblity of the users not to do illegal things.



There are legal BIOSes: the BIOS of MSX machines you own and C-BIOS. So it is possible to use an MSX emulator without breaking any laws.

Quote:

imho you simply cannot release the source of a program (or the source of a patch) when the program itself isn't free.

Why not? As long as you own the copyrights, you can do with the source what you like. It might not make business sense, but there is no technical or legal barrier.



By the way, Troll Tech releases some of their commercial products as GPL (one of the many open source licenses). But because the license only allows GPL software to use it, companies which want to use Troll Tech's toolkits in their closed source products will still buy the commercial version, which does not have such a restriction. So it is possible to sell and open source the same software and still make money.

Quote:

Especially when there are legal issues with the program itself already.

Are there? Please explain.

Quote:

It would be the same thing as: you aren't allowed to copy CD-Audio. But here you have the original master tapes. Have fun with it.

You don't even need the master, the audio CD itself is good enough to have fun with. And I do think people are allowed to have fun with audio CDs, as long as they don't break the law. If I want to create MP3s so I can listen to songs in the train on my PDA, I want to be able to do that. As long as I don't give those MP3s to anyone else, it's perfectly legal.

Quote:

Konami, Compile, T&E, Microcabin etc. will not be interested in re-releasing software for an emulator that can run pirated versions that are widely available on the web already.

Yes, that makes sense, but it does show their priorities.



Nishi did say that MSX PLAYer would be open sourced. But now it turns out that promise is not compatible with their business model. Maybe an example of different ideas of Nishi and MSX Association?

Quote:

Nishi did say that MSX PLAYer would be open sourced. But now it turns out that promise is not compatible with their business model. Maybe an example of different ideas of Nishi and MSX Association?

He said he WANTED it to. And unfortunately, because of Microsoft he can't.

Same for MSX-DOS2.. Nishi wants to release the sourcecode, but it's being owned by Madge Co. So unless they give the green light, it's not going to happen.



We can't always get what we want!

Also, a VERY important thing to remember is: MSX PLAYer is not for us!

The target audience of MSX PLAYer is the MSX'er that isn't MSX'ing anymore, and those that never touched an MSX before.

The MSX PLAYer is NOT FOR US. We are the MSX hobbyist community with our REAL hardware and our own emulators.



Another thing to realize is: The next official MSX computer will not be a desktop model like current MSX computers! If the new MSX will be succesful I can definitely imagine a desktop MSX to appear, but none of you should expect the new MSX to fully replace your current hardware!



Apparently this not understood by some people. Just know ignorance is not an excuse.

Quote:

And please note this: if the MSX player doesn't become profitable, the whole revival will end just there. So if you say that it's a shame that the MSX player doesn't play hacked roms or diskimages, think again. Chances are that you are missing the big picture then.

I think I do see the big picture, but I don't like what I'm seeing.



The MSX community was doing just fine before this revival thing started. I have no use for an emulator that will only let me run a small set of MSX software. I don't want to insert old MSX cartridges in my PC, I just want to emulate them. And there is no point in creating a new hardware platform when we can build MSX compatiblity in software. So far, nothing that MSX Association has produced or planned has improved my MSX-ing.



Don't get me wrong, they are not obliged to do anything for me. I just want to explain why I don't share some people's enthousiasm about the revival.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, they are not obliged to do anything for me. I just want to explain why I don't share some people's enthousiasm about the revival.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about MSX PLAYer either! But what I AM very much enthusiastic about is the possibility MSX PLAYer creates. And that is new MSX games from real companies!



I don't understand people's problems... How can the MSX Revival POSSIBLY negatively affect the MSX community?!

Quote:

The MSX community was doing just fine before this revival thing started. I have no use for an emulator that will only let me run a small set of MSX software.

The solution is easy. Just DON'T use MSX PLAYer.



MSX PLAYer is not intended to be for people like yourself. It's intended for people who like to click and play a game and not bother about what the MSX PLAYer is built from or what it costs or anything.



You are looking at it the totally wrong way. MSX Association is about creating a commercial MSX platform once again. And what is wrong with that? Maybe in the future you can be so lucky to have once of your own products licensed to run on MSX PLAYer as a commercial package. If you don't like that, then just keep using your regular emulator, and stop complaining about this commercial initiative.



If you insist on using a open source or GNU whatever emulator, that's your choice. No one will stop you from doing so.

Quote:

Not true. CD-writers can illegally copy many CDs without a problem. Yet stores are allowed sell them. It is the responsiblity of the users not to do illegal things.

MSX Association is not allowed to spread the MSX BIOS without paying licenses to Microsoft, and knowing Microsoft I'm quite sure they're not even allowed to release software that is able to run pirated Microsoft BIOS files.

Quote:

There are legal BIOSes: the BIOS of MSX machines you own and C-BIOS. So it is possible to use an MSX emulator without breaking any laws.

I hope Boukichi will start developing C-BIOS again, as I see this as one of the best solutions for all MSX emulators.

Quote:

Yes, that makes sense, but it does show their priorities.

In 2001 Nishi already stated that their priorities were not only to get MSX in the news again, but also to make money in order to be able to develop a decent one-chip computer.

Quote:

Nishi did say that MSX PLAYer would be open sourced. But now it turns out that promise is not compatible with their business model. Maybe an example of different ideas of Nishi and MSX Association?

AS I stated before, MSX Association still would like to release a free version of MSXPLAYer in the future. As long as Microsoft is in the way (and that might as well be forever) we'll have to deal with it this way. These changes were announced in news posts on msx.org.

I think the feelings against the MSX Revival are separated in many ways. For example



- The dislike against the logo policy on the website of the MSX Association. Although the trademark has been valid all along, and in essence nothing changes (MSX Association allows everyone to use the logo) many people did not like this policy



- MSX getting commercial again. MSX Association and ASCII and in the future perhaps even other magazines, websites, software houses and hardware developers are making money out of MSX again. Of course, this means that companies might even get interested to develop NEW software for MSX computers



- The feeling to be neglected by the MSX Associaton. As I stated before, the MSX Revivalists have tried to contact European and Brazilian MSX developers in an early stage of the revival. Later there were a few attempts as well. At that time, many people responded with a "MSX Revival?! Yeah right!!!" attitude, or did not respond at all. Things like did have obviously not contributed to the ammount of 'power' the MSX Community has on new developments.



All in all, many people have been complaining about companies dropping MSX ten years ago. I think it's strange that many people who were complaining about that are now angry because a few companies are - slowly - picking the MSX system up again.

u keep talking about companies. isnt it just ascii and MSX-A ??

Of course it's not just ASCII and MSX Association. What about Shuwa System Corporation/BOTHEC who release that other MSX MAGAZINE? What about SoftMap which is hosting the EGG-system? What about the softwarehouses who agreed that their software is going to be sold via EGG or the cdroms together with the MSX magazines? Snout calls it a FEW, I would say it's becoming a rather LARGE amount of companies....Slowly, yes. Of course. But definitely not only ASCII and MSX Association.

Thanks for clearing that out Latok!

Anytime

Quote:

MSX Association is not allowed to spread the MSX BIOS without paying licenses to Microsoft,

That's understandable because Microsoft owns those copyrights.

Quote:

and knowing Microsoft I'm quite sure they're not even allowed to release software that is able to run pirated Microsoft BIOS files.

This is speculation. Microsoft does not own any rights to the MSX PLAYer source. MSX Association has the rights over the part they wrote, Marat has the rights over the fMSX base they started with.



Besides, unlike many people think, Microsoft does not oppose open source in general. They oppose GPL, because that license does not allow them to use open source code in closed source products. Microsoft uses a lot of non-GPL open source code in their products, for example the BSD TCP/IP stack, libpng, the JPEG libraries etc. If you're using Internet Explorer, look at the "about" page, you'll see a couple of mentions of open source libraries there.



By the way, every emulator except MSX PLAYer can run both legal and illegal ROMs and software. Do you think they should be stopped?

Quote:

>>There are legal BIOSes: the BIOS of MSX machines you own and C-BIOS. So it is possible to use an MSX emulator without breaking any laws.<< I hope Boukichi will start developing C-BIOS again, as I see this as one of the best solutions for all MSX emulators.

I hope so as well. Especially now that MSX is becoming commercially interesting again, it is important to have a free alternative.

Late reply on an important topic

Quote:

By the way, every emulator except MSX PLAYer can run both legal and illegal ROMs and software. Do you think they should be stopped?

No I don't think so, but I think it is logical that a company who distributes an official emulator tries to prevent people from using illegal software/ROMS which could cost them money in the end. Piracy was one of the things that made Japanese software developers lose interest in the European market.



I know that a dutch MSX user group contacted MicroCabin in the early 90's, asking them if they could release their software in English as well. MicroCabin replied they were interested, but wanted to sell at least 200 copies. Despite of the enormous ammount of visitors to MSX fairs and the huge ammount of subscribers of MCM at the time, no one dared to take the risk, knowing that most people would just copy the English game and only few would buy it.