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Regarding the relative slowness VRAM speed of the MSX, in that situation is not a big penalty: those games works in a RAM backbuffer, then copy a ram block from RAM to VRAM; there is no much difference between an OTIR or LDIR.

The big problem is that you can't use OTIR on MSX1 if you're in the display area. If you are, you need to have 28 Z80 cycles between each out to the VDP. Thats a big problem. Not only does it slow down the copy. You're also wasting CPU cycles on nops.

Not to mention the fact that you can't just LD DE,elsewhere to change where you're drawing on the screen.

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Quote: Regarding the relative slowness VRAM speed of the MSX, in that situation is not a big penalty: those games works in a RAM backbuffer, then copy a ram block from RAM to VRAM; there is no much difference between an OTIR or LDIR. The big problem is that you can't use OTIR on MSX1 if you're in the display area. If you are, you need to have 28 Z80 cycles between each out to the VDP. Thats a big problem. Not only does it slow down the copy. You're also wasting CPU cycles on nops.

This sound strange to me; on an Sony HP10P this trick (OTIR) work fine to me, especially during vblank...

Take a look of a zx->msx1 speccy convertion of one of the last Batman title. It's a very quick z80 scroll

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This sound strange to me; on an Sony HP10P this trick (OTIR) work fine to me, especially during vblank...

unfortunately only during vblank. If you use otir during the display area you get corruption on many MSX1 models.

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unfortunately only during vblank. If you use otir during the display area you get corruption on many MSX1 models.

Yes, and I suppose it happens on all MSX models (at least all MSX1 models). The same thing happens on SMS.

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Quote: unfortunately only during vblank. If you use otir during the display area you get corruption on many MSX1 models. Yes, and I suppose it happens on all MSX models (at least all MSX1 models). The same thing happens on SMS.

On my sony hb10p (msx1) does not happen even during display time.
on my nms 8245 (MSX2) does not happen even during display time.

Well, a few years ago I had a totally accidental but spicy discussion on a "heavy metal forum" (of all places).

One guy with decent technical background kept defending Commodore vs MSX 1, yet he'd never seen games like Nemesis 3 (or Astro Marine Corps, for that matter). The most fancy thing he had ever seen on MSX was Eggerland.

Sure, the sound of the C64 was better in certain (sound sampling) ways, and maybe it was even just a tad better in graphic-processing than the MSX 1, but hell, we all know the games we like, and we tend to like the ones we grow up with, right?

But yeah, it must be jealousy. MSX is still, despite the odds, pretty much alive, so to see, and technically, it looks to me, it must be indeed be harder to emulate a C64.
I've read the more in-deep technical stories of people here with great interest!

Anyway, I always stand in awe of any given emulator. Really, I truly admire those who can make something like that.

There used to be some o.k. games on C64 as well. But they were never like MSX. And that can't be just out of prejudice that I think so...

Sorry that I don't really add much to this discussion but my 2 cents worth.

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C64 users don't even know Almost Real, Unknown Reality and other great MSX demos !!!!

Yes, indeed UR works "almost" perfectly on real MSX Turbo R.
The Windows copy and past to floppy disks was used for me.
Now, booting MSX-BASIC pressing the key "1".

I discovery this digging old posts in MSX Resource Center.

First press key "0" to exit to BASIC, later press key "1" while waiting the
MSX-BASIC to boot ...

There is some mentions about MSX-DOS1 and MSX-DOS2 too ...

Having owned MSX1, MSX2, MSX2+, C64 and a bunch of Amiga's:

technically, C64 beats the crap out of MSX, both graphic & sounds wise.
technically, Amiga beats the crap out of MSX 2(+), both graphis & sounds wise.

But, where MSX wins is gameplay. For some reason, most games on MSX had way better gameplay compared to games on the commodore machines. Of course both C64 and Amiga had some great games to, which were technically more andvanced, but most of the time they lacked something.

As for the emulation quality, both MSX and C64 have some pretty good emulators. But as for Amiga emulators: Well, it's just about OK....

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But, where MSX wins is gameplay. For some reason[...]

Maybe it's a Japanese reason. They're rather good at gameplay usually.... there aren't many Western shmups that touch the gameplay of the Japanese ones, for example, an exception being some of Jeff Minter's games.

Also, I love the NFS series, but there's nothing in the West that drifts like Ridge Racer

Those are just examples, but I think that might be the reason - the most popular MSX games were the Japanese ones (Konami, Compile), afterall!

In case you do not know who Jeff Minter is:
CiH and Jeff Minter @ ALT Party 2003

I'm a big fan of Tempest 2000 and Gridrunner++

Completly offtopic reaction

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The MSX2 or 2+ with 256 or 384/448 KB RAM (Memory Mapper + VRAM) is generic more nicer than a normal AMIGA with only 256KB RAM.

That is a worse compare. Only the first (and relative rare) Amiga1000 was shipped with 256Kb of ram. The mainstream Amiga500 and 2000 did have 512/1024Kb. It's like comparing a Amiga1000 with the NMS8220
And no, there was no MSX that was nicer to an Amiga. At the time the TurboR came in, the A1200 and A4000/040 were available (and they where a LOT more powerfull)

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But, where MSX wins is gameplay. For some reason[...] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe it's a Japanese reason. They're rather good at gameplay usually.... there aren't many Western shmups that touch the gameplay of the Japanese ones

I couln't agree more. That's why anno 2006 i still game more on the Playstation2 then Xbox/Xbox360.

It's just the Japanese games are more fun to play in singleplayer.

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That is a worse compare. Only the first (and relative rare) Amiga1000 was shipped with 256Kb of ram. The mainstream Amiga500 and 2000 did have 512/1024Kb. It's like comparing a Amiga1000 with the NMS8220 And no, there was no MSX that was nicer to an Amiga. At the time the TurboR came in, the A1200 and A4000/040 were available (and they where a LOT more powerfull)

Indeed, it hurts to say it... ...but the Amiga pwned big time! If only it had had a nice 14MHz R800 instead of that awful piece of motorola... *sigh* Ah well... If only, if shmonly... And no, I don't know what that's supposed to mean, it's too darn late...

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Quote: That is a worse compare. Only the first (and relative rare) Amiga1000 was shipped with 256Kb of ram. The mainstream Amiga500 and 2000 did have 512/1024Kb. It's like comparing a Amiga1000 with the NMS8220 And no, there was no MSX that was nicer to an Amiga. At the time the TurboR came in, the A1200 and A4000/040 were available (and they where a LOT more powerfull) Indeed, it hurts to say it... ...but the Amiga pwned big time! If only it had had a nice 14MHz R800 instead of that awful piece of motorola... *sigh* Ah well... If only, if shmonly... And no, I don't know what that's supposed to mean, it's too darn late...

And also a GFX9000 'graphic class'. the old v9958 could not cope in speed with the amiga blitter.

I think that
R800 @14Mhz+GFX9000+MoonSound is better than any amiga model.