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Well, wolf_ you're a bit narrow minded in this matter yourself (no offense). The debate is quite black and white. Sounds like Bazix is either the devil or the savior depending on who is posting.

Exactly how is all this narrow minded? I try to describe Bazix and Woomb according to what they are, seen from a neutral point of view (e.g. balancing what actually happens, not what ppl assume to have happened). While others describe them as what they want them to be (the big great evil), without facts to backup. Just read all the nonsense from poisonic in his rave to see my point. It shows he's never been able to read and understand texts or he's just too lazy to do so. (he's done similar actions before, all based on not properly reading, but rather yelling instead). Well, if he's going to throw bricks, he can expect them back. Not because I like throwing bricks, but because he never stops doing so, and at a certain point it's been enough.

What people fail to understand is that Bazix/Woomb is not good or evil, just a company (like many others, in every area) trying to protect their assets.

It's perfectly understandable that they come after MSX-MBOX, *in it's current distribution form*.

Why cant the authors do a simply tutorial on the net on how to add the emulator files, the games and so on into a disc image and burn it - and only offer the emulator files itself? This would probably solve this issue. (See the Mame/Linux self-booting CD "Advance MAME" to see how it can be done)

All the time wasted on this thread could be used doing it, making everyone happy. It would even help "the archive", since the file size to be downloaded would be considerably smaller - probably wouldnt exceeded the bandwidth limit...

Do I agree that there is a double standard? Yes, I do. But also, distributing a ton of games along with the emulator is pushing the limit. Even emulator authors from other system which does not have any kind of revival usually dont see this as a good thing.

Let's debate ideas here. But attacks against people/websites are not going to make a point, nor prove anyone right/wrong. It is sad to see the direction this thread took...

I have to agree completely with SLotman on this matter. Good point about the tutorial idea too. I've noticed that for many people MSX emulators are often kind of difficult to run, even one like BlueMSX.

>for many people MSX emulators are often kind of difficult to run

There are also a lot of people that can't find "any key" on a keyboard.
Is it because the keyboard is too hard to manage ? Do they need a special keyboard with single key named "Any" on it ?

There exists even better solution.

we're not in an age anymore where computers are reserved for the technicians. Everyone works with them, and ease of use has become really important. Even relatively easy to use emulators such as BlueMSX can be still a bit overwhelming for users. There's maybe one or two points where BlueMSX could improve in usability, but it has probably more to do with the relative complexity of MSX emulation - especially when moving into the realm of disk and tape-images, because that's less straightforward than running a rom. It's probably easy for most people here on MRC, but not for everyone else.

Imagine that instead of emulator and disk image the user got the real MSX and a floppy, or a tape.
Will he be able to run the game without understanding what he does ?

Let's ask the same question from the other point of view:

What's the target auditory of this or that emulator or "gaming package" ?
Common people that never saw MSX in their life, or MSX users that grew with MSX on their table ?

@wolf_: Take it easy, I didn't mean anything bad. Just read back in this thread. I know you have a different opinion than the rebels, but sometimes stormtroopers aren't always that open minded and forgiving either

me wonders who darth vader and the emperor are

may the force be with us

dvik: but I don't consider myself a stormtrooper, and therefor I don't consider myself biased.

Here's a scheme:
Bazix/Woomb ------------------ | neutral | ----------------- rebels

This scheme means that Bazix/Woomb-ppl are convinced they do it all right, the rebels also think they do it all right. The neutral spot -which is where I consider myself- just interprets whatever there is to interprete, info from webpages, observing ppl behavior concerning the subject.
This scheme btw is not a spectrum, its line-structure is just some way to display it, I guess 3 unconnected circles would also be a way to visualize it.

Anyway,

My observations from that spot:

• The rebels want to secure their regular warez-supply
  
• The rebels are usually anti-MRC
  
• The rebels are usually anti-Bazix
  
• The rebels are usually anti-Snout (and usually they don't care about Bart and Rieks, which is why these are never mentioned)
  
• The rebels I've seen sofar don't care to read up anything, they rather stick to whatever they already had in mind (or what was told them). This is by far the biggest point btw..
  
• Bazix tries to introduce a commercial situation into a warez-based scene (not so much like selling us things, but at least making sure things like licenses are official, and warez-related activities are to be minimized), I already told snout some years ago that this would be a near-impossible task, on which he agreed.. but nonetheless: don't walk in the way of those who try the impossible.. and as stated elsewhere: in case of succes it's only the begin.
  
• Bazix has sofar not shut down any of the 'major' warez downloadpoints we know, and I actually think they even won't do so anyway. (but since I can't know.. don't hold me on this one)
  
• Bazix introduced -with Woomb- MSX'ish software which doesn't run on an MSX, not all people might prefer this, but as stated by t00b in some other thread months ago "we all know what will happen when it's not protected". Sofar it's something you'll either like or dislike, but it's also something you needn't to be bothered about if you're not interested in it in the first place. Yet, the rebels take every chance to emphasize on this "bad" virtual aspect, even if they wouldn't be interested in the whole matter in the first place. That's like me complaining to the local CD shop about their load of French chanson CD's. What do I care in the first place? Just let them..
  

Perhaps I forgot a point of two, dunno. Anyway, this is just what I see happening all the time from a neutral position.

Does this mean that there is never a place for solid opposition to a concept? No, but as far as I'm concerned, a good discussion about the matter should be done with valid arguments, not with intentionally spread rumors and incorrect assumptions. Sofar -and this thread is a perfect example again, just like other similar threads show this time and time again- the rebels come up with anything but sense making arguments.

It's exactly this lack of reading and the randomly shouting false assumptions that I grow tired about. If this is what they call "reading" then my cat reads Shakespeare for breakfast. (he prefers Hamlet btw )


and now: TAGGLE plz

Quote:

Does this mean that there is never a place for solid opposition to a concept? No, but as far as I'm concerned, a good discussion about the matter should be done with valid arguments, not with intentionally spread rumors and incorrect assumptions. Sofar -and this thread is a perfect example again, just like other similar threads show this time and time again- the rebels come up with anything but sense making arguments.

@Wolf,
Sorry for cutting out a large part of your text. But I would like to know where you place me and the remarks I have placed earlier? Also a rebel, shouting out his anti-MRC/Bazix/Woomb-stuff, or do you think that the remark I have made earlier actually do make some sense?
Because with what you have written now, you would place me under those "rebels", with which I totally do not agree. I might be critical, but is that also wrong?

dvik: but I don't consider myself a stormtrooper, and therefor I don't consider myself biased.

No you're not that biased, but quite strongly opinionated (which is good I think)

I'm trying to stay out of this debate because it is very polarized, but here are a few things where my objectivity differs from yours:

* Even if I agree that MRC is not equal to Bazix, its very biased. You won't find many MSX forums that writes so much about OCM or Woomb. This is imo nothing bad, just a consequence of that many MRC people are Bazix people as well so its natural to write more about things you care for.
* I dont think the rebels want to secure their warez. They want to be able to create packages with (semi) obsolete software without getting shut down. This is quite tricky nowdays with commercial emus in WII, Woomb, Gametap and other similar services because its not only Bazix that have issues with apps like MSX MBox.
* Imo, Bazix actually did a very childish thing when they got the MSX-MBox link in that magazine removed. This is not only immature but also questionable ethics and perhaps not even legal. A correct action would be to send a letter to the MSX-MBox people and ask them to remove any games for which Bazix have copyright or distribution righs for. I am absolutely sure this does notinclude all games shipped with MSX-MBox.
* Bazix does not represent all companies that did MSX games in the 80's. I wonder if they even represent any game companies, but thats for snout or another Bazix representative to tell (I couldn't find any info on their website).
* wolfs bullet list looks nicer than mine.

tfh, I'd place you as neutral. If you have criticism at least you base your notes on law or something, and you don't appear plain dumb. As I said, opposition is ok, as long as the discussion is based on something that makes sense, and without yelling 'n stuff.

dvik:

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* Even if I agree that MRC is not equal to Bazix, its very biased. {1}You won't find many MSX forums that writes so much about OCM or Woomb. This is imo nothing bad, just a consequence of that {2}many MRC people are Bazix people as well so its natural to write more about things you care for.

{1} And then I ask, why do other forums not write about it? News is news, afaik it's not forbidden for any website to hunt down the internet in search of MSX news. Oh btw, I could mention a forum that writes about failing OCM things, and not -much- about succesful OCM things, but that's another discussion So anyhoo, a lot of news on MRC about OCM is merely a side-effect of the news-hunting we do, MRC writes about everything newsworthy btw.
{2} "many" ? exactly 3, and this number will decrease. I currently count 16 MRC crew members.

The other points are points for Bazix to answer, I don't know all these ins and outs..

except this point: * wolfs bullet list looks nicer than mine.

 w00t?
 O_o


arf.. list overrules code .. :S

[ l i s t]
[ * ] w00t?
[ * ] O_o
[ / l i s t]

@dvik, although I agree with you that sometimes MRC reports a bit too enthousistic about Woomb/Bazix stuff, there are no serious MSX news sites to compare it with. Or someone would actually expect MSX-Posse to post neutral about these kind of matters

cool, the soap opera continues... just the topic name is different as usual.
Is this an annual thing among msx users ?