As long as MSX Association has completly forgotten Europe (no panaeuropean version of MSX-magazine, no english version of MSX-Player, crappy english web-page never updated, no respect to european hardware development and neither attention nor support to brand new MSX games), my question is the following:
Should we accept the MSX Association rules? I know that they are the legally entittled owners of all patents, trademarks and legal issues. But ethically they are far away of being legitimated.
So, I will continue using software produced more than 10 years ago without paying ANYTHING, and I will continue coding for the MSX platform without indicating that "all my work and happiness belongs to MSX Association". Accept it: they have left us. Of course, I would like to have a new MSX computer, but it will be in japanesse, it will cost lots of yens and there will not exist any documentation for it. I will buy it anyway, but I will continue my "MSX-life" without considering what Nishi (a.k.a. "the traitor" plans to do in Japan and NOT in Europe.
I know this post is a bit "hard", but it resumes my feelings about all this. We have been forgotten and ignorated. And this will continue in the future for sure. The only solution is becoming japanesse (no way, it's time to eat sushi).

wow wow wooooow... Take it easy pal ! First of all Nishi is far from being a traitor, he's the one who created the MSX and also the one who gave the impulse for its rebirth. Secondly Nishi DID bother coming to the netherlands to present his project to us die hard MSX Fans. Now concidering how busy that guy is, isn't that a sign of good will ? You know many people who would do that ?

Secondly, it's not Nishi or ASCII who gave up on MSX. ASCII did NOT produce the MSX but companies like Matsushita, SONY, Sanyo, Philips... When it stopped being a lucrative business, these are the companies who gave up on MSX (And we can hardly blame them for that because that's what a company is for, making money).

With time I do beleive that the new MSX could make it to Europe, but at this stage it's just merely a concept, not even a working technology. If they plan to make it a worldwide commercial product (and according to Nishi it is), I guess the companies producing it will put the marketing efforts it takes to sell it. At this stage there is no other companies than ASCII involved and certainly nothing that can be sold that would generate any profits. I guess with the MSX Magazine and the festival ASCII is testing out the response of the potential audience on a small scale (= less costly), and this is the process ANY new product is going through.

So I guess we just have to be a little bit more patient. We've been waiting for more than 10 years know, what difference can it make...

Please fit to the facts: all the MSX revival project is ONLY focused on japanesse market. They do not even post the magazine to the rest of the world! And no version of MSX-Player! It is better to buy the Win version of fMSX from Marat Fayzullin.
Would they change their plans? I guess NOT.

Pitpan, please read our earlier posts about this before you make any judgement. (try our search-engine)

Japan has never left us. How can someone leave you, if it had never any true relationship with you?

Our European companies left us, not the Japanese ones because they where never here in the first place.

Luckely for the real diehard msx-ers, they continued their support in Japan as long as possible and now because of all the retro fuzz and all, some dare devils in Japan picked up the glove and are trying to make some software and hardware again.

As lot's of people stated before: copyrights and trademarks have nothing to do with how you feel about a particular company.

If you make something that has any commercial value, you want to protect that, so you'll be sure you own the rights and can make some money with your hard work.
Respect others who want the same thing too. It's one of the foundations in western society.

Ok, take a look at the new mobile phone devices produced by Japanese companies, or the digital cameras etc.. They are released far earlier in Japan than in Europe. Why? Because that is the only viable course of action, you cannot simply start out on the largest scale and hope it will be a success. If you do and it doesn't work out as you liked you can count your losses. Imagine that if ASCII would go through the effort of translating MSX Magazine to English and release it on a broad scale in countries like the Netherlands, Brazil, Spain, etc. It is a much much larger release than in Japan only, it would cost a huge lot of money, while whether it will ever be any success is to be highly doubted. Europe and Brazil are much less prone to the 'gadget-factor' MSX Magazine has, Japan is a much easier market as far as that is concerned.

So they'd loose a whole lot of money, and do you think that would do any good to the progress and the chances of this new MSX? No, definately not. Would that make you happier? About the MSX Association rules, they are not restrictive in any way as far as it comes to software development. In the contrary, they finally give you an official source for the MSX logo again. As far as copying games goes, there will always be piracy. And I have yet to see the commercial firm which does *not* take a stance against it.

About Nishi being a 'traitor', do you honestly feel that way? Personally I wouldn't get worked up about it so much, MSX simply didn't become the success they hoped for and in no way that was anyone's fault in particular. It is indeed true what sander said. The european companies left us long before the Japanese did, have you ever seen a european MSX2+ or MSX turboR? Still in Japan they kept producing these, however at some point the people overthere didn't want it anymore either so there was no base for commercial production anymore. Again this was indeed largely the companies' decision and not Nishi's, although he certainly at some point had to face reality and say that he didn't believe in it anymore either. He might have tried to revive it earlier, but he didn't. He apologized for that on the Tilburg fair, however he is going to do his best now.

What more can you expect? If you must accuse anyone (damn I hate the human notion of always having to point out a culprit), blame the companies, especially the European ones. Yet we need those companies if we ever want it to get released again here.

Let's just put it this way. If the 'new MSX' becomes a success in Japan, it will almost certainly come this way. If it doesn't, we're out of luck anyway.

ps. One more thing. You want to know why no English version of MSX-Player was released? It's Microsoft's fault! They are asking licensing fees from ASCII for using their BIOS in MSX-Player. ASCII does have the means to pay such a fee for a Japanese license, where the chances of success are as I said larger, however they aren't able to acquire European and Brazilian licenses. They are too expensive and the odds are not very good - if it doesn't work out they'll have spent a huge lot of money for nothing.

I quote from the official MSX Magazine site: "ATTENTION:These games and MSXPLAYer are only the Japanese versions,and this book can be shipped only within Japan. It is because export to a foreign country cannot be performed by the contract." They would like to, however they can't. Same goes for EGG.

~Grauw

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The european companies left us long before the Japanese did, have you ever seen a european MSX2+ or MSX turboR?

Aside from common sense, this is one of the proofs that Japan has a higher chance of succes than Europe has. Also, when releasing the MSX-Player in Europe, ASCII fears that they are going to spend a lot of money on it while it'll only get copied, maybe bought by some 'freaks' but definately not by the general public which only sees it as a nice retro thing and maybe copies it from a friend to try it out. Japanese attitude towards this copying and paying for things is way different for sure.

~Grauw

Hmm, I don't think the Japanese attitute differs much, remember those "No Copy" logo's in Japanese magazine's and on MSX software? Or what about a program called "Formula"?

I think that the percentages are about the same, but because the Japanese market was larger, there where still enough people who bought the software to make it profitable.

About the reprint of the Magazine: At lot of people are longing for those old days. The school kids of the past who copied their games, are the people with a salary today.

Therefor I don't think you should underestimate the amount of people who would buy an English magazine today, but I agree with you that the amount involved probably will be lesser than the Japan sales figures.

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Please fit to the facts: ... SNIP .... Would they change their plans? I guess NOT.

Please base yourself on facts too then. You simply do not know, and probably will never know considering your attitude towards the MSX association, anything about the plans of the MSX Association at all. They only thing you know for sure is that you may not use the MSX logo without a copyright notice. And that's a normal procedure for every trademark in the world.

Can you be factual? So we can discuss facts instead of feelings?

pitpan, i dont think the new MSX will be in japanese. I remember a base language that could be used to translate to about 184 natural (human) languages. Isnt that being build in as well??? (<-- any1 knows for sure?? then please answer)

Nothing like a hard-enough post to discover the number of users here!!!!
First of all, I should say that calling Dr. Nishi "a traitor" was a kind of joke or what-so-ever, but the main idea is the same: we are not in Japan, we cannot decide, we cannot benefit the project with our own ideas.
I agree with the problem about Micro$oft MSX-BASIC copyright, but what is really annoying is the feeling that we have been left apart. MSX Magazine has been a really huge success, but at least I expected that the english page were updated more often.
And it is nothing "personal". What can we do? Any ideas? Would not it be better just to join european/brazilian efforts and select a new standard for us? We have really high-qualified hardware developers and it can be done if we accept only one standard, our own standard, without counting with japanesse people.
All the problems that you mentioned (copyright issues, little and divided MSX market in different countries) will continue for ANYTHING done by the MSX Association. They really want to earn money and that reason is strong enough to get us out of all this. We are not here for the money, just for the fun. We can do different things and I think that better and bigger things because we are not constrained by that "LET'S-MAKE-MONEY" philosophy. It is just an idea, I do not want to argue with anyone, I am just writting down what I think about the MSX Association.
We cannot blame them, but we are left out of (their) MSX Revival Project.

Well you are surprisingly bad informed mr pitpan.
First the MSX Player. The MSX player is in the possession of at least three people.
in Holland. So, not available for Europe.
To the distribution the following. MRC as well as Sunrise have asked MSX Associations to distribute the player into Europe. I have negotiated about it and will continue this.
There is no answer still but an absolute NO is also not given.
Second : Nishi apologized already for the fact that europe was left alone.
On page 89 of the MSX-Magazine are mentioned MRC, SUNRISE AND THE MAKERS OF UZIX as your best partner.

Than the so called non interest for european hardware as well as software
Nishi showed at tilburg his interest in the Z380 OF LEONARDO PADIAL and I spoke with him about the possible implementation of the opl4 into the all in one chip.
This interest was repeated on sunday by Yokoi, who showed also his interest in our plans of making an Ethernetcard with the ez80.our cartridge box.
As regards the software : FAT16 developped for our ide is originally written by mrs Okei and adapted by Jon de Schrijder. This all working TOGETHER .

Just a few facts to make you think if Japan/Nishi really left us

- the name MSXPLAYer was based on suggestions from the MSX Community. Most suggestions came from the European MSX community, most of them are printed in the Magazine
- MSX Association have tried to contact dutch and brazilian hardware developers many times before in the early stages of the revival. No one believed in the revival, or at least not in it approach, no one cooperated.
- Nishi gave a long lecture for free in Tilburg 2001. Normally he charges about 25.000 euro's per hour (half hour???). Go to the articles section and read the report there. He sincerely apologized for dropping MSX, and clearly explained it were the companies producing MSX-es that had far too high expectations of the sales-rates (every TV a computer) at the time.
- Japanese gaming companies still wanted to release games in Europe, even translated versions. No dutch distributor wanted to burn their hands on a market roamed by piracy however. An example of Microcabin is somewhere else in this forum
- We're in the early stages of this project. I think there are very few companies who let projects like this to be followed this early this closely. We're talking inside information here.
- Like Grauw pointed out. Releasing a product world wide is never a good idea. If you have a new product, you start with a small market that is most likely to embrace your product. For MSX, that is Japan. Japan is only a few years off the market there. Outside of Japan, there were decade(s) and generations without any official MSX whatsoever.
- Releasing a magazine costs a rediculous ammount of money. Distribution is a pain in the ass. You'll only sell the magazine when it is in all the small shops. I had a talk about this with someone in the publication business. There are about 2000 selling points for computer-related magazines in the Netherlands alone. There are only little people who would like to buy a magazine that is not in their mother tongue. If you think you'll sell 2000 magazines, every selling point will receive excactly one magazine. If it's sold, it's sold out. If it isn't sold, it goes back to the distributor again. He can't do anything with it no more, because then it already is an old magazine. Think of how many selling points there would be if you want to sell magazines all over Europe and Brazil. I think it can hardly be profitable. Yet
- Nishi didn't forbid you to create software for MSX. The possibility of creating new software (and even hardware) quite easily is one of the things MSX is all about. The MSX Association only summed up some quite understandable guidelines for the use of the MSX logo.

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Nothing like a hard-enough post to discover the number of users here!!!! First of all, I should say that calling Dr. Nishi "a traitor" was a kind of joke or what-so-ever, but the main idea is the same: we are not in Japan, we cannot decide, we cannot benefit the project with our own ideas. I agree with the problem about Micro$oft MSX-BASIC copyright, but what is really annoying is the feeling that we have been left apart. MSX Magazine has been a really huge success, but at least I expected that the english page were updated more often. And it is nothing "personal". What can we do? Any ideas? Would not it be better just to join european/brazilian efforts and select a new standard for us? We have really high-qualified hardware developers and it can be done if we accept only one standard, our own standard, without counting with japanesse people.

I wrote about this on this forum before, you can read the message by following this link:
www.msx.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB_14&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=598

Basically my point of view is that I really don't see the 'current MSX scene' reaching a consensus of any kind. The very difference in our opinion demonstrates this. It would definately be good if European/Brazilian efforts joined (I said that years ago already but nothing ever happened, I doubt it will in the future), although I don't understand the omission of the Japanese all of a sudden, I have nothing against them and ESE made some great projects!

Actually, I personally know more about Japanese, Dutch and Spanish hardware projects than Brazilian. I think new MSX designs like CIEL3++ are cool, and I am definately interested in it, but if I take this very same example, it keeps getting postponed, the specs keep changing and the information is in Portuguese only. As an end result we (European people) are keeping horribly disinformed and have no clue how it is progressing and whether there will ever be something released, or whether it's just vapourware. There is no better attitude from Brazil towards Europe than from Japan as far as that is concerned, and just like I show a little pessimism towards CIEL3++ I have also shown pessimism against ASCII's plans. However they have shown to put serious effort in it, and I now also know quite a lot about what's going on (not in the least thanks to msx.org!! thanks guys!). So I can only conclude that I actually am *better* informed about what's going on in Japan! Important and well-informed, close to the project people from Japan (Mr. Nishi himself and Yokoi from ESE) took the effort to visit us and explain their plans to us. I don't feel abandoned or something at all!

So, a bit of self-reflection might be nice here. And realism aswell, so far there've been no signs of any attempt of cooperation between for example Ademir and Padial, and I doubt there will ever be. I suspect their views on certain important aspects are too different to match. However we are getting actual results from Japan, and there are definately steps taken for cooperation as (Rob Hiep? Peter Burkhard? from) Sunrise pointed out.

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All the problems that you mentioned (copyright issues, little and divided MSX market in different countries) will continue for ANYTHING done by the MSX Association. They really want to earn money and that reason is strong enough to get us out of all this. We are not here for the money, just for the fun. We can do different things and I think that better and bigger things because we are not constrained by that "LET'S-MAKE-MONEY" philosophy. It is just an idea, I do not want to argue with anyone, I am just writting down what I think about the MSX Association.

A hobbyist 'new msx' would be nice, however I think some form of commercial base is much better. Developments will go faster, the MSX community might grow again, and there are some practical aspects too like, a commercial effort with a large userbase can mass-produce which will make things cheaper, has access to more resources and better documentation, and (a very practical matter Ademir for example runs in to) can create decent casings to put the new boards in.

I personally don't mind the commercial attitude at all, after all we live in a capitalist world and MSX has always been commercial in the past when it was still 'alive'. I don't like it better now than I did back then. The good things about commercial is that it makes a lot of things easier, large investments, acquiring components, manufacturing, well I named them already before ^_^. The bad thing of it is that it requires a market. If the market is not there, it will not work out. However if that happens we would care ofcourse, but not be utterly destroyed by it, because we still have our hobbyist attitude and just continue on our own again.

There's definately 'bad' kinds of commercialism like for example Microsoft's, with their monopolist and controlling and money-making attitudes, however ASCII is the 'good kind' of commercial firm I think. They intend to make things cheap, and are all in favour of things like open standards, etc. And their actions so far have shown they *do* care about the user's input!

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We cannot blame them, but we are left out of (their) MSX Revival Project.

I have no decisive power in it, no, that's for sure. But as I wrote in the other message elsewhere in the forum, it would be in my opinion impossible to form a general consensus among the MSX community. Therefore, the community as a whole could not possible be given decisive power. Aside from that, it would also slow down the progress of the revival, and I actually fear for 'affairs', developers who are involved but don't agree on some point breaking cooperation with ASCII, and spreading bad rumours, or worse. It has happened before, and I can see it happen again, ordinary mud-fights. It won't do any good at all. The Japanese have already expressed a certain distrust towards groups of people because of the attitudes they have experienced (remember the alarming mail from Ikeda to the mailinglist? Apparantly he had gotten a couple of (almost-)hatemail and with accusations of him being a liar and all. The Anti-MSX Revival thing didn't do any good either), and from that I can understand they fear the same.

They attempted to form cooperation deals in the past, however then they bumped into disbelief, and now we are pushing them away ourselves with our negative opinions. If I were them I wouldn't want to cooperate with people saying such negative things about me either, sometimes even -in my eyes at the least- untrue. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you to shut up ;p, but these are the facts, this is how MSX-Association and all respond, and I can't entirely blame them. They have to deal with a lot of pessimism and negative input.

~Grauw

By the way, I would like to congratulate myself with my 100th post on the MSX forum, and Bart aswell for the same reason, and I would also like to congratulate myself with surpassing Bart, and my 21st birthday ^_^. Yay.

Damn disappointment I'm still nothing more than an 'msx lover' ^_^.

~Grauw

oh, and ps., I am also the proud owner of an offical ASCII MSX Magazine, and hence also of a copy of the MSX-Player including a number of games. It is a pretty good emulator, I can tell you that.

To quote some of the original text:

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So, I will continue using software produced more than 10 years ago without paying ANYTHING,

Hey, piracy is always free. What strange statement is this...

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and I will continue coding for the MSX platform without indicating that "all my work and happiness belongs to MSX Association".

Another strange statement. All you have to do is say "MSX is a trademark of MSX Association"! Before you had to say the same but replace 'MSX Association' with 'Microsoft' and later 'ASCII Corporation'.
Saying that does not give MSX Assoc. any rights to your product. It's your product! And if you were meaning another joke, it's a very bad one ^^;

Why is it that now some commercial company comes along, some people think they are attacked by the devil itself?