ZX Spectrum Next kickstarter -> That would be nice for MSX...

Paragon (1298)

25-04-2017, 11:42

I don't have the skills to talk about FPGA vs other solutions, but sure developers had all this in mind and have chosen make it this way for some reason... that's something that I can't talk about. But seems a very good project to me, I think that feeling will be so good for users and it will be a good development machine, and will help a lot to keep the system alive.

The Vrobit specs with integrated keyboard doesn't seem posible for 300€, I think price should rise to 500€ or so then. I supose in projects like this, production costs are expensive for the number of units.

Anyway, I like this project a lot and for sure I will buy one... mmm... maybe two

I'd like to know about the pros of a project like this but FPGA based, it will be good for people like me with no knowledge about this things. It's not the first time I read that it should be better if done with FPGA, I'll thank a little explanation (not too much technical or I'll be lost soon).

Por tfh

Prophet (3317)

25-04-2017, 12:11

RetroTechie wrote:

tfh wrote:

Everything in FPGA, like the OCM, but with better specs then the OCM had...

If you're referring to the Spectrum Next, the 1chipMSX has better specs for the most part:

Comparable size (if not bigger) FPGA.
More RAM
2 cartridge ports vs. 1
2 joystick ports vs. 1
2 USB ports
Reasonably mature firmware with lots of MSX extensions included

What it lacks is DVI or HDMI output. And firmware support for the USB ports.

And while that Speccy keyboard looks mighty good, not having a built-in keyboard has some advantages too.

No, I meant over the original OCM. I am talking about HDMI, V9990, OPL4 & Full Turbo-R support. And preferably a built-in keyboard, but I can live with an external one as well.

Warchild wrote:

I'd like to know about the pros of a project like this but FPGA based, it will be good for people like me with no knowledge about this things. It's not the first time I read that it should be better if done with FPGA, I'll thank a little explanation (not too much technical or I'll be lost soon).

Hmmm, simply said:
With emulation, you have a program (emulator) that runs on your computer (tablet/phone) that more or less acts like the original hardware. Depending on how well the emulator is written (and with what purpose) one does a better job then the other.
With an FPGA you more or less recreate the original hardware within the FPGA chip.

Por keith56

Master (162)

25-04-2017, 12:56

There's a lot of people saying the same in the CPC community, but it it just me who thinks its a bit crazy that these things are ending up MORE expensive than owning the real hardware - even after upgrading to a HxC disk drive?
My CPC, MSX2 and speccy cost 50 pounds each, when you're talking about a FPGA recreation of that hardware costing far more than owning the real thing it seems a bit backwards.

Anything that makes the old systems more ownable is great, but 200 euros is about 4x the cost of a real spectrum ???

Por tfh

Prophet (3317)

25-04-2017, 13:31

keith56 wrote:

There's a lot of people saying the same in the CPC community, but it it just me who thinks its a bit crazy that these things are ending up MORE expensive than owning the real hardware - even after upgrading to a HxC disk drive?
My CPC, MSX2 and speccy cost 50 pounds each, when you're talking about a FPGA recreation of that hardware costing far more than owning the real thing it seems a bit backwards.

Well, you are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing it to an MSX2, but tell me... What would a Turbo-R with 512Kbytes of RAM, SCC, V9990, SlotExpander, LAN & SD-Cardreader cost?
If you can point me to this for a price of 299 euro's...

Por keith56

Master (162)

25-04-2017, 14:18

I could point you to a Raspberry pi, but I understand what you are saying - the trouble is all the currently existing MSX recreations are more expensive than their real counterparts

right now, buying the 1ChipMSX costs more than an MSX2+, as does the GR8BIT and the unreleased Vrobit - as I say I'd love to see a cheaper more available 'msx clone', but even with the case of the fully equiped turbo R you mentioned, software (and hardware?) compatibility would have to be near 100%.

I would assume such a commercial MSX clone could have licensing issues with Microsoft, Yamaha and others?

Por iamweasel2

Paladin (709)

25-04-2017, 14:45

Well, it doesn't seem fair to me compare something new, built with new technology that will last for a good time, with old (most of them sold as junk) machines that can break anytime soon (sorry, but that is the true).

The question to me is: does this new FPGA machines bring improvements to original core? it seems to me that this new ZX Spectrum has all features that the classic ZX machines have, while it brings improvements to the ZX machines people have. The problem with OCM was that it didn't bring many improvements and in some aspects it was inferior to the machines we already have. Otherwise people would like it a lot more, I think.

Por tfh

Prophet (3317)

25-04-2017, 19:53

Also fun: http://www.armigaproject.com/shop/
And more on a price-level for Keith56 ;-) Although this is really just for playing games & stuff...

Por Manuel

Ascended (19308)

25-04-2017, 21:15

tfh wrote:

With emulation, you have a program (emulator) that runs on your computer (tablet/phone) that more or less acts like the original hardware. Depending on how well the emulator is written (and with what purpose) one does a better job then the other.
With an FPGA you more or less recreate the original hardware within the FPGA chip.

I think it's more subtle. You won't get the original hardware on the FPGA. But you may get the same or very similar behaviour. That does require to reverse engineer the chip in full detail. Then again, the same thing must be done for a software emulator and it will get you the same results...

Por tfh

Prophet (3317)

25-04-2017, 22:20

Manuel wrote:

tfh wrote:

With emulation, you have a program (emulator) that runs on your computer (tablet/phone) that more or less acts like the original hardware. Depending on how well the emulator is written (and with what purpose) one does a better job then the other.
With an FPGA you more or less recreate the original hardware within the FPGA chip.

I think it's more subtle. You won't get the original hardware on the FPGA. But you may get the same or very similar behaviour. That does require to reverse engineer the chip in full detail. Then again, the same thing must be done for a software emulator and it will get you the same results...

As I said, I was trying to keep it simple...

Por Manuel

Ascended (19308)

25-04-2017, 22:45

Yes but I don't thnk it's now very clear what the advantage of an FPGA based solution is...