ZX Spectrum Next kickstarter -> That would be nice for MSX...

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Por keith56

Master (162)

Imagen del keith56

25-04-2017, 23:30

tfh wrote:

Also fun: http://www.armigaproject.com/shop/
And more on a price-level for Keith56 ;-) Although this is really just for playing games & stuff...

Actually, I just came across this yesterday (The same conversation is going on at CPCWiki!)
http://zxuno.speccy.org/index_e.shtml
This seems a cheap and simple way of giving yourself "Real speccy hardware" to play with.

I'm in no way against these "high price recreations" but I get the feeling they're being bought by wealthy people with money on the hip on a whim, or people who already own real hardware as their nth system... the fans with money will always own real hardware, those with no money will favor emulation or a "Fix up" system off ebay ... these FPGA's seem to fill the "Don't need 100% accuracy, Don't need it to be cheap" market - which I find strange

Por santiontanon

Paragon (1770)

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26-04-2017, 04:38

I am extremely ignorant when it comes to these matters, but just for curiosity: why do we need to reverse-engineer the original hardware?

Of course we need to do this for emulation, but I don't understand why is this needed for building an actual machine. I thought the MSX was a standard. Does the standard not fully specify the hardware? or is it the case that the internals of the different chips that made up the system (e.g., the VDP) is the part that is unknown? I just wonder whether it would be possible to build a new MSX machine today by just buying a new Z80 (which can still be bought: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/z80/15507?WT.sr... ), RAM, etc. (not sure if the VDPs or PSGs could be bought) without requiring FPGAs or emulation.

Por tfh

Prophet (3317)

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26-04-2017, 09:53

santiontanon wrote:

I am extremely ignorant when it comes to these matters, but just for curiosity: why do we need to reverse-engineer the original hardware?

Of course we need to do this for emulation, but I don't understand why is this needed for building an actual machine. I thought the MSX was a standard. Does the standard not fully specify the hardware? or is it the case that the internals of the different chips that made up the system (e.g., the VDP) is the part that is unknown? I just wonder whether it would be possible to build a new MSX machine today by just buying a new Z80 (which can still be bought: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/z80/15507?WT.sr... ), RAM, etc. (not sure if the VDPs or PSGs could be bought) without requiring FPGAs or emulation.

My guess is that building a new Turbo-R with V9990, SCC, etc... will be more expensive (if you can already get hold of all parts in new condition) then 299 euro's...

Por RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

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26-04-2017, 12:33

santiontanon wrote:

I am extremely ignorant when it comes to these matters, but just for curiosity: why do we need to reverse-engineer the original hardware? (..)or is it the case that the internals of the different chips that made up the system (e.g., the VDP) is the part that is unknown?

Yes - it's the internals of chips that require reverse engineering. In the case of MSX, basically all done except for the V9938/V9958. (that's mostly there, but w.i.p.)

Quote:

I just wonder whether it would be possible to build a new MSX machine today by just buying a new Z80, RAM, etc.

Yes that works fine. Required IC's can mostly be found on eBay, specialized webshops etc. No reverse engineering needed, 'just' wire the stuff up & put suitable ROMs in it.

As for FPGA's: it's a matter of availability / cost / size / power consumption & flexibility. Original IC's are old & thus prone to breakage, prices may vary, stocks may be limited, etc, etc. For the most part, an FPGA re-implementation is smaller, cheaper & lower-power than using the original IC. And the additional cost of yet-another-extension is near 0. So it makes sense to pick a big enough FPGA & implement everything in that. If a bug is found, a new version of a softcore can usually fix the issue. Easier than re-wiring a board...

The high price of boards like this is a numbers game, really. If 100k+ units were built, they would be cheap. But with a few hundred or thousand units, development costs are a large part of the equation. Last time I checked, price of a '1chipMSX-capable' FPGA was around $30. But then you need to put it on a board. And design that. And have that board produced. And connectors. And on-board support circuitry (power, memory, ...). And a case. And develop an FPGA configuration for that board. And test it all. And put it in a nice box. And ship those. And replace defective ones. And do so for 100 or 1000+ of them. That's a long route & it all adds up... Sad Quite a few KickStarter projects have failed because people underestimate the difficulty of prototype -> mass product.

Por ren

Paragon (1932)

Imagen del ren

28-04-2017, 13:37

Manuel wrote:

I think it's more subtle. You won't get the original hardware on the FPGA. But you may get the same or very similar behaviour. That does require to reverse engineer the chip in full detail. Then again, the same thing must be done for a software emulator and it will get you the same results...

Only with sw emulation you'll suffer from stuff like input lag. Can be a deal breaker if you're serious about gaming (notice e.g. the difference between a shmup in regular MAME vs Shmupmame).

(Interested if openMSX can be optimized that way, at the cost perhaps of display accuracy?) (Though I'm not sure how much openMSX suffers from it? A while ago I did have the impression that openMSX felt more direct than blueMSX playing Shmup!. No idea how it feels on real hw though.. (I am interested to know if that's (rather) noticeable? Wink))

Por Louthrax

Prophet (2436)

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28-04-2017, 15:07

Yeah, there are so many factors causing lags on emulation (video card, using the Aero themes or not on Windows 7, USB keyboard or joypads, background processes, even the sound card)... You can really feel the difference on MSX shmups, but I never tried the OCM / FPGAs.

Por DamnedAngel

Champion (262)

Imagen del DamnedAngel

22-05-2017, 01:17

Folks,

just remembering that ZX Spectrum Next kickstarter is less than 24 hours from its deadline.

If you are up to it, go right away to https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1835143999/zx-spectrum-... and don't miss the opportunity of showing some love and getting one of the sexiest retrogears ever made.

[]s

Por mtn

Champion (269)

Imagen del mtn

22-05-2017, 02:46

Hm. Been playing to many bad Spectrum->MSX ports to even click that link.. Evil

Por Louthrax

Prophet (2436)

Imagen del Louthrax

22-05-2017, 11:38

mtn wrote:

Hm. Been playing to many bad Spectrum->MSX ports to even click that link.. Evil

Oooooh... Not completely false though Smile
Let's not forget that this project could give birth to an MSX version if succeeding (as MSX user Fabio Belavenuto is involved here)!

Por syn

Prophet (2115)

Imagen del syn

22-05-2017, 11:57

The case looks awesome imo, and it being FPGA it may even be possible to port the ese3/1ChipMSX core to it Smile (Though I dont know the size of the fpga used)

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