DEMOs

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By PingPong

Prophet (3984)

PingPong's picture

04-10-2022, 22:08

Quote:
Parn wrote:

It would be wise to remember the original VDP was designed for a minimum of 4kB VRAM. RAM was expensive at the time and the VDP doesn't require much in terms of complementary circuitry. All the usual limitations are perfectly fine for a chip of its time: it can do 40 column text cheaply, it can do colored high resolution graphics with sprites even with just 4kB VRAM (albeit in a very limited fashion), it has 15 colors, and it also has a low resolution mode without color restrictions. What was there at the time? The ZX80? Commodore PET? Those don't come even close.

exactly! that's the point : it was designed in an era when ram was limited, not to mention the ability to use DRAM instead of SRAM which was expensive.
But the point is that is a crappy chip because was designed in 'another era', thus obsolete.

By Pentarou

Champion (472)

Pentarou's picture

04-10-2022, 22:57

PingPong wrote:

Casio sold sooo much because they sold 8KRam machines.

[insert sarcastic o-rly meme] (◔_◔).

PingPong wrote:

The price of an MSX1 is far more higher than a Spectrum and comparable with a competitor like the C64.

I was talking about Japan, where MSX was conceived/designed.
No C64 or Spectrum there, the cheapest computer was far more expensive than in Europe/US.
But as a bit of personal info, I'll tell you that when I bought my 1st MSX1 it was cheaper than a C64 and just a little more expensive than a full spec ZX Spectrum (which had less RAM).

Quote:

the same apply to you. you can try to overestimate the TMS vdp, but nothing changes: the chip itself is extremely limited and already obsolete when compared with the gfx level of a machine born in 1983.

Question I think you are bit confused... You quoted me, but who exactly are you replying to?

By Parn

Paladin (809)

Parn's picture

05-10-2022, 13:31

Actually the C64 existed in Japan, but it was a total failure.

By PingPong

Prophet (3984)

PingPong's picture

05-10-2022, 16:42

Quote:
PingPong wrote:

The price of an MSX1 is far more higher than a Spectrum and comparable with a competitor like the C64.

I was talking about Japan, where MSX was conceived/designed.
No C64 or Spectrum there, the cheapest computer was far more expensive than in Europe/US.

But as a bit of personal info, I'll tell you that when I bought my 1st MSX1 it was cheaper than a C64 and just a little more expensive than a full spec ZX Spectrum (which had less RAM).

MSX should have been a worldwide standard. Looking at the japan market make no sense. In italy, in '84 a c64 was only 25€ more expensive than a 64K MSX1. (the c64 also had a dedicated tape device)

Quote:
Quote:

the same apply to you. you can try to overestimate the TMS vdp, but nothing changes: the chip itself is extremely limited and already obsolete when compared with the gfx level of a machine born in 1983.

Sorry removed accidentally one line. It was in reply to your sentence : "you can blame... but nothing changes".
My reply is : "you can tell what ever you want about TMS VDP, but its limits are here and nothing will change, the TMS VDP is the first reason of the fact the msx have not got the success it deserved"

By Pentarou

Champion (472)

Pentarou's picture

05-10-2022, 18:05

Parn wrote:

Actually the C64 existed in Japan, but it was a total failure.

The Max/Ultimax was sold as a console, as it was the original intentions of Commodore
(hence the Sprites/SID), after the failure it was reworked in what is known as the C64.

PingPong wrote:

MSX should have been a worldwide standard. Looking at the japan market make no sense. In italy, in '84 a c64 was only 25€ more expensive than a 64K MSX1. (the c64 also had a dedicated tape device)

LOL! I like your reasoning :-)
So if I say that in Japan MSX was cheap, it doesn't count because "makes no sense"; However if you say in some other place MSX was expensive then it's OK.
.
You then confirm that a C64 was

Quote:

25€ more expensive than a 64K MSX1.

contradicting yourself... Are you on drugs? ;-)
And BTW such dedicated tape device was offered for free, right?
Otherwise such an indispensable accessory should be added to the price of the machine...

PingPong wrote:

Sorry removed accidentally one line. It was in reply to your sentence : "you can blame... but nothing changes".
My reply is : "you can tell what ever you want about TMS VDP, but its limits are here and nothing will change, the TMS VDP is the first reason of the fact the msx have not got the success it deserved"

You must have removed entire posts of mine then, since I don't know what you are talking about.
I wrote something to the tune of: "it's useless complaining", "blaming someone" 40 years later, as you are doing in these threads of yours. What has happened won't change.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6346)

mars2000you's picture

05-10-2022, 18:22

Here's an interesting page about Japanese C64:

https://monochromeeffect.org/wp/2018/03/23/japanese-commodor...

Many compatibiity issues with 'normal' C64...

By Pentarou

Champion (472)

Pentarou's picture

05-10-2022, 18:29

Thanks, never seen this mentioned before.
@Parn: Sorry, I didn't know such a thing existed.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6346)

mars2000you's picture

05-10-2022, 18:42

Look also here: https://ricedigital.co.uk/japanese-commodore-64-games/

The page contains several links to MSX games ported to other systems, including C64

By PingPong

Prophet (3984)

PingPong's picture

05-10-2022, 20:01

Pentarou][quote=Parn wrote:

Actually the C64 existed in Japan, but it was a total failure.

The Max/Ultimax was sold as a console, as it was the original intentions of Commodore
(hence the Sprites/SID), after the failure it was reworked in what is known as the C64.

PingPong wrote:

MSX should have been a worldwide standard. Looking at the japan market make no sense. In italy, in '84 a c64 was only 25€ more expensive than a 64K MSX1. (the c64 also had a dedicated tape device)

Quote:

LOL! I like your reasoning :-)
So if I say that in Japan MSX was cheap, it doesn't count because "makes no sense"; However if you say in some other place MSX was expensive then it's OK.

Please do not try to mangle my reasoning . I say that you tell about japan but you must consider the entire world. And in europe msx was not so cheap as it is globally

Quote:

You then confirm that a C64 was

Quote:

25€ more expensive than a 64K MSX1.

contradicting yourself... Are you on drugs? ;-)
And BTW such dedicated tape device was offered for free, right?

First, the price included the device, on msx you need to provide
Second, we are not talking of 1 € difference here. both system are similar in terms of price, not on the tech level of course the VIC-II was far more advanced, Again do not try to mangle my reasoning.
;-)

Quote:
PingPong wrote:

I wrote something to the tune of: "it's useless complaining", "blaming someone" 40 years later, as you are doing in these threads of yours. What has happened won't change.

and i replyed that you can write anything, but the TMS is an obsolete and bad designed chip. and nothing can change this.

By Pentarou

Champion (472)

Pentarou's picture

05-10-2022, 20:13

Seriously, you should read what you write before pressing the submit button:
You write something then contradict yourself in the next paragraph.

Then you insist on this crusade about "the TMS is obsolete"...
Dude, nobody's contradicting you!
Just quit posting that ever and ever! We already know that... Nobody cares and you can't change history!

And FFS, please learn to use the quote feature!

PS. I know that I'll regret writing this, as I'm giving you further cues to post your nonsense...
But no, the Commodore Datasette was not included in the C64 price. That's the reason I wrote that line.
Yes, there were some bundles with joystick and games too (as it was done with the MSX to move inventory), but originally the C64 came by itself with no accessories.
And it was expensive too.

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