NTSC vs PAL

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Par meits

Scribe (6528)

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04-01-2018, 16:30

@eimaster:
I highly doubt any Japanese software was ever written for 50Hz use. Neither as European professional/official software was ever written for 60Hz. In the unlikely situation that a Japanese coder wants their software to run on 50Hz they have to force the software to switch to that frequency. Since you know how The Castle sounds at 60Hz, this is not the case. And since all Japanese MSX machines boot at 60Hz, The Castle is written for that frequency and so is its music.
That you prever some music to sound better on 50Hz is a personal opinion, which you are allowed to Wink . Luckily we MSX people have to choice to run most software on the frequency we desire.

@Metalion:
I guess I am right. Weird that there's never been a poll about that, while it's an interesting one. Not to see if you or I am right, but to find out for which frequency there's more demand for future products.

Par Grauw

Ascended (10639)

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04-01-2018, 20:31

Metalion wrote:
Meits wrote:

Nowadays most people still prever 60Hz when they flash a game to their flashrom.

Not true.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again : I discovered and learned MSX at 50Hz. Therefore, 50Hz is for me the frequency reference, even for japanese games (the ones that allow that frequency of course).

Meits didn’t say all people prefer 60 Hz Big smile.

Fwiw, I’ve always preferred 60 Hz as well. Back in the 90s when I was using a monitor, it was mostly because the image flickered less and filled the whole screen, which I found more pleasant to look at. Nowadays I prefer it for the image height, and hearing music at its original speed.

As a developer I target 60 Hz because it’s the lowest common denominator; making 60 Hz software run at 50 Hz is trivial, the other way around though can be very troublesome if you need smooth motion and are using more than 80% of the CPU or VDP processing power.

Par Hrothgar

Champion (479)

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04-01-2018, 20:27

Meits wrote:

I highly doubt any Japanese software was ever written for 50Hz use.
[...]
That you prever some music to sound better on 50Hz is a personal opinion, which you are allowed to Wink

There's no accounting for taste. Probably nostalgia is an important factor for current MSX users, which might explain why some European MSX'ers prefer 50 Hz also for Japanese products.

That being said, there may be examples where an objective measure of 'correctness' is possible, namely where music is not an original composition by the Japanese coder, but a cover of an existing piece of work. The Goonies is undeniably closer (almost exact) to the original at 50 Hz. I'm interested to see other examples.

Par JohnHassink

Ambassador (5630)

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04-01-2018, 21:11

I must admit I don't really get the "nostalgia" involved with 50Hz.
My first MSX was a Philips that booted in 50Hz and which I had to hook up to the house TV set anyway, meaning removing VDP(10)=0 commands from loaders or booting with SELECT if possible. Some of you probably remember.
So at first, I was used to a lot of game music playing in 50Hz.
When I finally got to play things on an MSX2+ with a monitor, I found out why Japanese games sounded a bit sluggish and lurpy before and never went back again.
Ofcourse I would also force 50Hz with "Western" games from then.

Par Grauw

Ascended (10639)

Portrait de Grauw

04-01-2018, 21:14

I did get to know a lot of games’ music at 50 Hz of course (e.g. many Konamis), but actually for me that meant later I kinda “rediscovered” their soundtracks playing at the original rates, which was nice as well.

Par tfh

Prophet (3262)

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04-01-2018, 21:18

Grauw wrote:

I did get to know a lot of games’ music at 50 Hz of course (e.g. many Konamis), but actually for me that meant later I kinda “rediscovered” their soundtracks playing at the original rates, which was nice as well.

Same here. Although I started out playing everyting on 50Hz (I didn't know better), these days I've gotten accustomed with the 60Hz versions and at 50Hz they seem to play in a sort of slow-motion.

Par eimaster

Champion (272)

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04-01-2018, 23:22

Hrothgar wrote:
Meits wrote:

I highly doubt any Japanese software was ever written for 50Hz use.
[...]
That you prever some music to sound better on 50Hz is a personal opinion, which you are allowed to Wink

There's no accounting for taste. Probably nostalgia is an important factor for current MSX users, which might explain why some European MSX'ers prefer 50 Hz also for Japanese products.

That being said, there may be examples where an objective measure of 'correctness' is possible, namely where music is not an original composition by the Japanese coder, but a cover of an existing piece of work. The Goonies is undeniably closer (almost exact) to the original at 50 Hz. I'm interested to see other examples.

You hammered it and thanks for proving my point of view with an example "which I forget to use as a proof" l. The Goonies music obviously is close to the real song tempo when you hear it on PAL 50Hz machine and not on NTSC 60Hz machine. So, maybe Japanese Konami developers of the game thought that the music won't be bad if it played a little bit faster at NTSC 60Hz and normal speed at PAL 50Hz, but it would be bad if it played at normal speed at NTSC 60Hz and slower speed PAL 50Hz. So I think most Japanese game developers programmed their games music to sound normal on the slow PAL 50Hz so music won't loose its flavour even if it played a little bit faster at NTSC 60Hz.
Thanks friend. An excellent commercial Konamied proof. Wink

Par meits

Scribe (6528)

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04-01-2018, 23:49

There's too much guessing going on here. If a Japanese composer who aims at a Japanese audience (that's what they did) he can lower the tempo to fit the original song's tempo. He clearly didn't because he chose to have his rendition in the 60Hz tempo it got to be.
MSX sold so much more in 60Hz Japan than anywhere else that it's highly unlikely to think they were thinking of us 50Hz people. Games like Space Manbow, Quarth, Solid Snake and SD Snatcher even force 60Hz while the latter two explicitely were not targeted to outside Japan. If they did this with all their games in stead of just the final ones we wouldn't even have this discussion Wink

Par eimaster

Champion (272)

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05-01-2018, 00:55

Meits wrote:

There's too much guessing going on here. If a Japanese composer who aims at a Japanese audience (that's what they did) he can lower the tempo to fit the original song's tempo. He clearly didn't because he chose to have his rendition in the 60Hz tempo it got to be.
MSX sold so much more in 60Hz Japan than anywhere else that it's highly unlikely to think they were thinking of us 50Hz people. Games like Space Manbow, Quarth, Solid Snake and SD Snatcher even force 60Hz while the latter two explicitely were not targeted to outside Japan. If they did this with all their games in stead of just the final ones we wouldn't even have this discussion Wink

Maybe you're right but still there is a very big question I ask and I'm eager to know what is your and everyone else answer to it. The question is: Why is the music of The Goonies is closer to the original sound track at 50Hz than at 60Hz?! Maybe music players produced in Japan are a little bit faster at that time, no?! Wink

Par Grauw

Ascended (10639)

Portrait de Grauw

05-01-2018, 01:10

One possible reason could be, the music tempo needs to match the 50 or 60 Hz time quantisation. If you make music in e.g. MoonBlaster 1.4, you’ll notice that you can simply not always get the tempo you wish, so you need to set the tempo a little faster or a little slower. There are ways around it but they introduce a little shuffle, and we don’t know if Konami’s sound engine supported those ways.

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